Is the EU more like what our founders intended for the US than what we have become?

thomez · 01-12-2008, 10:14 AM

The EU is a collection of sovereign states with open borders between those states and a national currency.

Seems to be just what our founders intended on this most basic level (of course not on all levels, not even close, but you get the idea).

Not all of the EU has the open border policy yet, and not all use the EU as currency, but I'm generalizing here and you should get my point nonetheless.

So I'm asking for opinions, is the EU setup more like what our founders intended or is our expansive federal government closer to that reality?

Just curious. This thread is not intended to be overly technical, it is just a brainstorm.

ballz2wallz · 01-12-2008, 10:17 AM

Not to nit-pick, but it seems you answered your own question:

Originally Posted by thomez

Seems to be just what our founders intended on this most basic level (of course not on all levels, not even close, ...).

thomez · 01-12-2008, 10:23 AM

I gave my opinion. Where's yours?

ballz2wallz · 01-12-2008, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by thomez

I gave my opinion. Where's yours?

No.

bheld · 01-12-2008, 10:25 AM

I don't really have an opinion but it's still thought provoking. They're probably more like what the Articles of Confederation would have been like instead of what we eventually ended up with.

thomez · 01-12-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

No.

How about we add a why.

I feel like I'm dealing with a 3rd grader.

ballz2wallz · 01-12-2008, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by thomez

How about we add a why.

I feel like I'm dealing with a 3rd grader.

Because the founding fathers set our country up to be a capitalist society, and the EU is far from that. The point you mentioned in the opening thread MIGHT be the only thing similar to what they had in mind. Except that all the 'states' in the EU have completely autonomous governments, and that's not what they intended either. So, the answer is a strong No everywhere.

Perhaps if the thread was worded better, or more descriptive, you would have answers that go with it? There's not really much to work with.

3rd grade questions get 3rd grade answers I guess.

thomez · 01-12-2008, 10:32 AM

I think one could make the argument that completely autonomous state governments would be much closer to the founders' ideas than the current state of affairs.

Also, we are talking about the layout of the government, not the economic policy.

ballz2wallz · 01-12-2008, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by thomez

I think one could make the argument that completely autonomous state governments would be much closer to the founders' ideas than the current state of affairs.

Also, we are talking about the layout of the government, not the economic policy.

There is no one government. There is no single layout. What government are you refererring to? What is that government's layout?

hsmith · 01-12-2008, 12:44 PM

One could argue yes - but the EU gov't is trying to take more power which is what our federal gov't did

thomez · 01-12-2008, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

One could argue yes - but the EU gov't is trying to take more power which is what our federal gov't did

I do not know the details of the EU charter and what powers they currently have but the countries still seem to handle most things themselves. But like you said, I'm sure the EU will be trying to change that

kinggovernor · 01-12-2008, 01:48 PM

Save our barmaids' boobs

By TIM SPANTON
Published: 04 Aug 2005

THE EU has declared a crackpot war on busty barmaids ? by trying to ban them from wearing low-cut tops.
Po-faced penpushers have deemed it a HEALTH HAZARD for bar girls to show too much cleavage.

And in a daft directive that will have drinkers choking on their pints, Brussels bureaucrats have ordered a cover-up.

They say barmaids run a skin cancer risk if they expose themselves to the sun when they go outside to collect glasses.

Last night the move was blasted as an affront. Annie Powell, of real ale group Camra, raged: “It’s just another blatant example of Europe gone mad.”

Page 3 babes Nicola T, 22, and Keeley, 18, show just what we could all soon be missing at the pub.

Save our barmaids' boobs | The Sun |HomePage|News

fuck THAT shit

we all know Thomas Jefferson loved him some tits

7960 · 01-12-2008, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

we all know Thomas Jefferson loved him some tits

According to the semi-brown skin on some of his kids it seems he only loved the tits he owned.

http://www.ishipress.com/slaves.htm

ballz2wallz · 01-12-2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Save our barmaids' boobs

By TIM SPANTON
Published: 04 Aug 2005

THE EU has declared a crackpot war on busty barmaids ? by trying to ban them from wearing low-cut tops.
Po-faced penpushers have deemed it a HEALTH HAZARD for bar girls to show too much cleavage.

And in a daft directive that will have drinkers choking on their pints, Brussels bureaucrats have ordered a cover-up.

They say barmaids run a skin cancer risk if they expose themselves to the sun when they go outside to collect glasses.

Last night the move was blasted as an affront. Annie Powell, of real ale group Camra, raged: “It’s just another blatant example of Europe gone mad.”

Page 3 babes Nicola T, 22, and Keeley, 18, show just what we could all soon be missing at the pub.

Save our barmaids' boobs | The Sun |HomePage|News

fuck THAT shit

we all know Thomas Jefferson loved him some tits

kinggovernor · 01-12-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I googled "crazy EU laws" and this was the first hit

JaJae · 01-12-2008, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by thomez

I gave my opinion. Where's yours?

I'd have to say no. The founding fathers first and foremost envisioned a society of individual freedom and limited government. EU is not that type of society by any stretch of the imagination.

The European Union has a bunch of individual nations working within a collective Union. Nations are not the same as states.

I can see the distinction you're trying to draw regarding the removal of states rights in our nation. And I agree it is something we need to bring back and we need to stop handing over power to the federal government, but we still have the foundations to go back to what the founding fathers envisioned. A libertarian rise in the US could effectively change much of the destruction we've done to the rights of the states. But the EU is so far off course and there is no foundation there for them to fall back on. The principles of our government are missing.

Thorgrim · 01-12-2008, 03:53 PM

If I live in Sweden I don't have to worry about the military drafting me into a big overseas war, I don't have to worry about basic privacy rights with huge government agencies spying on me with domestic spying, and I don't have to worry about fascism crawling up with secret prisons used to torture or detain the countries own citizens

I think if they came back and saw the campaign Guiliani was running, they'd wonder why he hadn't been driven out of the country

Ofcourse, let's not forget the obvious, almost all of the founding fathers would refuse to eat dinner with Obama, and would kill their daughters before letting him even date them

RMNIXON · 01-12-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Save our barmaids' boobs

We all know Thomas Jefferson loved him some tits

Linzy serves BEER!

RMNIXON · 01-12-2008, 04:06 PM

What are you getting at Thomez?

That the "United States" is the same as a Continental "Free for All?"

I believe in free trade because it is a good economic choice and promotes political harmony with our neighbors. But I still like Sovereign government, and currency, and laws of a single nation.

Now when you have countries that think they have a right to dump their surplus population, including criminals, over our weak borders, I get issues! I am not inclined to unite anything.

thomez · 01-12-2008, 04:26 PM

Well, what I was getting at is this - trying to draw a similarity between the way the EU functions (in very very broad terms) and how the US Constitution was drawn up - basically a limited federal government which could only handle the things it was authorized to through the Constitution, and the rest of the issues would be handled by the states, or the people, respectively.

This seems closer to what the EU does than what we currently have, in my opinion. They have individual entities (the distinction between them as countries or states really doesn't matter if you view the role of the EU and US federal government on equal terms) that handle their own business, have their own laws, their own policies, etc. - yet they trade freely, people travel freely between them, and they use a common currency.