Democratic confusion: no to emergency security measures, yes to thermostat control - Page 2

bheld · 01-14-2008, 10:15 AM

I mentioned earlier the possible need for records for accounting purposes, but I don't really see why those records need to be individually identifiable.

7960 · 01-14-2008, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by bheld

I mentioned earlier the possible need for records for accounting purposes, but I don't really see why those records need to be individually identifiable.

And i don't see a way around it.

And btw, it's not *possible* need for records. Your doctor must have your medical history. Period. Do you think he'd be as good of a doc to you if he didn't?

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 10:34 AM

Maybe if you looked at it within the frame of referance that CA doesn't have power to supply all of the homes in it's state and to keep powerplants from burning out they have those so-called "rolling blackouts" where they totally cut all power to an area. Now if it's a choice between having my electricity totally shut off for a few hours or having my thermostat change automatically during a power emergency... I know which option I want.

Scrum · 01-14-2008, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

And i don't see a way around it.

And btw, it's not *possible* need for records. Your doctor must have your medical history. Period. Do you think he'd be as good of a doc to you if he didn't?

So the Doctor is going to be the government in a universal system?

7960 · 01-14-2008, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Maybe if you looked at it within the frame of referance that CA doesn't have power to supply all of the homes in it's state and to keep powerplants from burning out they have those so-called "rolling blackouts" where they totally cut all power to an area. Now if it's a choice between having my electricity totally shut off for a few hours or having my thermostat change automatically during a power emergency... I know which option I want.

isn't that different than

through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses

7960 · 01-14-2008, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Scrum

So the Doctor is going to be the government in a universal system?

I don't understand "doctor is going to be the govt" but your doctor is going to report what he did to the govt. And the only way they'll know if he's lying is to have access to medical records, just like insurance companies do today.

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

isn't that different than

Considering that if the option is rolling blackouts, I don't have a choice if or when they happen... and rolling blackouts interupt traffic, business, hospitals etc... If the choice is between having my thermostat updating automatically or having my power cut off... yeah I'll let the government change my thermostat.

7960 · 01-14-2008, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Considering that if the option is rolling blackouts, I don't have a choice if or when they happen... and rolling blackouts interupt traffic, business, hospitals etc... If the choice is between having my thermostat updating automatically or having my power cut off... yeah I'll let the government change my thermostat.

I'll buy a generator, thanks.

(actually, I already did

)

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

I'll buy a generator, thanks.

(actually, I already did )

That doesn't solve the problem. So few people have generators and they only kick in when the power gets turned off. The rolling blackouts still cause problems. Not to mention the fact that generators that can power your home cost upwards of 10,000 dollars and not many people would be willing ( or able ) to pay for one.

7960 · 01-14-2008, 11:24 AM

It solves my problem.

So because california's electricity infrastructure sucks they want to put a big brother box on everyone's a/c ?

BTW, when it's done my generator will come on after 8 seconds of disrupted power and I can set what "disrupted power" means. If there's a brown out my house won't be affected because anything that requires constant power is on a UPS.

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

It solves my problem.

So because california's electricity infrastructure sucks they want to put a big brother box on everyone's a/c ?

BTW, when it's done my generator will come on after 8 seconds of disrupted power and I can set what "disrupted power" means. If there's a brown out my house won't be affected because anything that requires constant power is on a UPS.

Thats fine for you, but it's a statewide problem. I agree the real solution is infrastructure, but building powerplants is hard. It's hard to get them approved, especailly if they are nuclear, and it takes what 10 or 15 years after approval for them to come online? I doubt you will get approval for another fossil fuel fired plant in CA. So what do you do in the time between now and when you can get 3 or 4 new nuclear plants on-line?

7960 · 01-14-2008, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So what do you do in the time between now and when you can get 3 or 4 new nuclear plants on-line?

This bad boy costs about $3k and can easily power two houses. And it runs on propane/natural gas so there's no need to refill it. This is the best option until california outlaws residential generators

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

This bad boy costs about $3k and can easily power two houses. And it runs on propane/natural gas so there's no need to refill it. This is the best option until california outlaws residential generators

I think that's a bad solution for many reasons. One is that it requires burning more fossil fuels potentially driving up demand and cost for everyone not to mention the potential environmental impact. Then you have the problem that alot of people can't afford to shell out 3 grand+installation costs to buy a generator. Then you have businesses who need alot of power for which a small generator like this would not make sense. Then you have traffic signals and such that can't really run on generators. It's the least efficient way of solving the problem. Just in terms of cost, thermostat upgrades would cost what 5 bucks? 10 bucks per unit?
Maybe they could have an exemption for people who do have thier own generators. You would be required to turn it on during a power emergency but then would be able to set your thermostat wherever you like.

7960 · 01-14-2008, 12:22 PM

^^

I can't believe you're ok with the govt putting a box inside your house to control your temperature.

Say I'm going overboard with slippery slope if you want, but next is water temp, then amount of water, then ....... ?

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

^^

I can't believe you're ok with the govt putting a box inside your house to control your temperature.

Say I'm going overboard with slippery slope if you want, but next is water temp, then amount of water, then ....... ?

Well they already control the temp during emergency situations by cutting off your power. They need an effective way of reducing power consumption during a power emergency instead of the sledgehammer approach of simply turning the power off.
If you just ask people to do it they won't. It's a shitty problem and short of instantly putting a few new powerplants online, I don't see a good solution.

When there are water emergencies, does the government not control how you use water? IE you can't water your lawn or use a hose to wash your car. etc. I know it seems strange that the government would control the temp in your house but it's not really that big of a deal. It's the least expensive and least instrusive method to deal with power supply shortages.

7960 · 01-14-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

...... does the government not control how you use water? IE you can't water your lawn or use a hose to wash your car.....

The difference is they're not putting a box in your house to do it. If they want to require me to reduce my consumption, fine. If they want to come in my house and start turning shit off, fuck that.

WickedLou9 · 01-14-2008, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

The difference is they're not putting a box in your house to do it. If they want to require me to reduce my consumption, fine. If they want to come in my house and start turning shit off, fuck that.

I don't see the difference. Your compliance is mandatory either way. If you don't comply you face a fine. If they put a chip in your thermostat you could not comply by defeating the chip or installing an old thermostat.

bheld · 01-14-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

And i don't see a way around it.

And btw, it's not *possible* need for records. Your doctor must have your medical history. Period. Do you think he'd be as good of a doc to you if he didn't?

I'm not saying that doctors don't need your medical records. Like I've tried to communicate repeatedly, under the plan I'm advocating the doctors are not going to under government control. It's also possible to do governmental accounting while making sure that health records are not individually identifiable.

Scrum · 01-14-2008, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

The difference is they're not putting a box in your house to do it. If they want to require me to reduce my consumption, fine. If they want to come in my house and start turning shit off, fuck that.

So a box set up on the power junction off your property would be ok?

It's the box being on your property that you have a problem with?