I just left class after a discussion about natural rights

kinggovernor · 01-15-2008, 05:41 PM

And I got into it will like 98% of the class because I don't believe in them. I think the idea of natural rights, which come from natural law were created by men to oppose law from kings. The only rights or freedoms do not come from God or nature, if that was so they why didn't people have these "rights" until we, as human beings create them.

Your rights and freedoms come from your self defense abilities, the better you are able to protect yourself, the more rights and freedoms you and your society will enjoy. The example I gave was free speech in Europe versus free speech in the United States. I know it violates

but I talked about how in Germany nazi stuff is banned, because the powers to be are afraid that they cannot defend themselves against the "Fourth Reich". While we as a country are much more capable of defending ourselves against white supremacists.

What does everyone else think about this?

kinggovernor · 01-15-2008, 05:43 PM

cliffs: rights are something that we, as people, created. They don't really exist any further than you ability to make them exist.

Dylith · 01-15-2008, 05:53 PM

I have actually discussed this topic as well. What I came up with (or rather read about after spending a semester looking at political theory) was instead of having God given rights or natural rights in the sense that they are given to use via some natural force, is that we have rights because we, as a community say that we do and want them.

Basically we literalize metaphors. We see the way that we want the world to be and then we make it that way through the creation and implimentation of man made humanitarian law.

Of course being somewhat of a humanitarian it would be easier for me to defend humanitarian law and human rights if they were backed by something more powerful than man, but I don't think that the fact that they are man made really makes them useless or unimportant. Human rights do exist and we are the ones who bring them into existence.

kinggovernor · 01-15-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dylith

I have actually discussed this topic as well. What I came up with (or rather read about after spending a semester looking at political theory) was instead of having God given rights or natural rights in the sense that they are given to use via some natural force, is that we have rights because we, as a community say that we do and want them.

Basically we literalize metaphors. We see the way that we want the world to be and then we make it that way through the creation and implimentation of man made humanitarian law.

Of course being somewhat of a humanitarian it would be easier for me to defend humanitarian law and human rights if they were backed by something more powerful than man, but I don't think that the fact that they are man made really makes them useless or unimportant. Human rights do exist and we are the ones who bring them into existence.

I agree, violence brought them from thoughts and ideas to actually policies. And strong self defense has kept them that way, my point.

7960 · 01-15-2008, 06:43 PM

I just have one question........are you saying if it wasn't for rights a society creates then it'd be ok for me to kill you?

RMNIXON · 01-15-2008, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

cliffs: rights are something that we, as people, created. They don't really exist any further than you ability to make them exist.

Yes, but where do we get these notions about rights if not from human nature?

And our nature tells us that while we are indeed a cooperative species that can organize large social and political units we are still stubborn individuals. We do not operate like insects working for the good of the hive. That is why we have these notions of individual rights and personal liberties that we consider more important than government itself.

Well, most of us anyway!

ballz2wallz · 01-16-2008, 09:13 AM

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

I believe there are certain inherent rights within us, granted to us only by God. The rest can be created or taken away by man.

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

I believe there are certain inherent rights within us, granted to us only by God. The rest can be created or taken away by man.

Yeah but you only have those rights so long as you are able to defend them. If some super powerful something or other took over and imposed iron fisted rule on the planet, whether we believe those rights exist or not is moot, becuase we would not have them.

7960 · 01-16-2008, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I believe there are certain inherent rights within us, granted to us only by God.

Granted by god........did people have these rights before jesus came to town?

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 09:23 AM

I don't even think it's worth wasting breath on whether or not you believe you have these natural rights. It's irrelevant. If you believe you have the rigths but are unable to defend or exercise them... who cares?

AVengeance · 01-16-2008, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

I just have one question........are you saying if it wasn't for rights a society creates then it'd be ok for me to kill you?

Not okay by HIS standards, but okay by yours. And in that case, it's down to survival of the fittest (or maybe luckiest). And that's really what it boils down to. So as long as no enforcers of the state are present, feel free to kill him. Remember- it's only a crime if you get caught... (but it's always a sin because God sees everything, blah blah blah).

ballz2wallz · 01-16-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Granted by god........did people have these rights before jesus came to town?

Got ya! God and Jesus are separate, yet one in the same!

Confusing eh?

Dylith · 01-16-2008, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

I just have one question........are you saying if it wasn't for rights a society creates then it'd be ok for me to kill you?

Many societies have been ok with killing their own to some extent, whether it is sacrifice for losing at the popular sporting event or just ok to challenge someone to a fight to the death. There also use to be distinctions between classes (not saying we don't have seperate classes now, but a more structured class system than we usually see today). In some societies the higher class could do just about whatever it wanted to the lower class, at least until the lower class rose up against them.

ballz2wallz · 01-16-2008, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dylith

Sounds like Hinduism

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

the Word = Jesus

Then you have hte Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Jesus = God sending His son, or Himself in the form of man

It's all that...

Dylith · 01-16-2008, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

the Word = Jesus

Then you have hte Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Jesus = God sending His son, or Himself in the form of man

It's all that...

looks like you managed to quote it before I could delete it. It was an uneeded post by me and would serve only to derail the thread from its intended topic. Perhaps we can discuss the similarities between the makeup of the two religions in the Liberty From Life forum

7960 · 01-16-2008, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dylith

Many societies have been ok with killing their own to some extent, whether it is sacrifice for losing at the popular sporting event or just ok to challenge someone to a fight to the death. There also use to be distinctions between classes (not saying we don't have seperate classes now, but a more structured class system than we usually see today). In some societies the higher class could do just about whatever it wanted to the lower class, at least until the lower class rose up against them.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Got ya! God and Jesus are separate, yet one in the same!

Confusing eh?

Originally Posted by AVengeance

Not okay by HIS standards, but okay by yours. And in that case, it's down to survival of the fittest (or maybe luckiest). And that's really what it boils down to. So as long as no enforcers of the state are present, feel free to kill him. Remember- it's only a crime if you get caught... (but it's always a sin because God sees everything, blah blah blah).

So the answer is................ yes? .......no?

ballz2wallz · 01-16-2008, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Dylith

looks like you managed to quote it before I could delete it. It was an uneeded post by me and would serve only to derail the thread from its intended topic. Perhaps we can discuss the similarities between the makeup of the two religions in the Liberty From Life forum

Sure thing!

Back on topic...I do believe we have certain rights as humans that nobody can take from us, given to us by God. This is true across the world.

Read Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis, and it explains it beautifully.

7960 · 01-16-2008, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Sure thing!

Back on topic...I do believe we have certain rights as humans that nobody can take from us, given to us by God. This is true across the world.

Do non-christians also have these right? Are these rights put upon you by your god? Do these rights exist between a buddhist and an atheist, or do they only come into play when a christian gets involved?

I'm not trying to nitpick I'm just trying to figure out the rules.

ballz2wallz · 01-16-2008, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Do non-christians also have these right? Are these rights put upon you by your god? Do these rights exist between a buddhist and an atheist, or do they only come into play when a christian gets involved?

Humans have these rights. All humans.

God shows no more love to Christians than anyone else, He loves everyone.

Publius · 01-16-2008, 10:05 AM

The problem with your theory, tkg, is that you're mixing up the OPPRESSION of rights with the REMOVAL of rights.

Natural rights are those rights with which we are born; rights which are ours by virtue of being human beings. The right to free speech/expression/thought, the right to some measure of property ownership, etc.

I'll give you an example of both of those...

Free speech/expression/thought - unless another