Dying Patients Won't Get Experimental Drugs - Page 2

kinggovernor · 01-16-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Spideynw

That is not abuse, that is a misdiagnosis! A patient could be given approved medicine for a misdiagnosis and have the same thing happen.

and when it happens when a doctor is pushing a certain type of treatment that hasn't been approved of yet = abuse

bheld · 01-16-2008, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Or their right to hope.

If that's all there is at stake then give them a sugar pill and tell them it's a new super-drug.

bheld · 01-16-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Spideynw

No, it could not be "abused".

Oh, well if you say so.

RockPusher · 01-16-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

If that's all there is at stake then give them a sugar pill and tell them it's a new super-drug.

That would be fraud.

People go to medicine men and have all manner of dubious treatments when they run out of options.

That is their right and I respect it. It gives them hope. A light in their dark final hours.

Damn anybody who denies them their wishes. Damn those that believe that they know better and are determined to control them.

7960 · 01-16-2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

How is volunteering stepping closer to "nazi experimentation"?

It's not.

But that's not what I said. What I said was "and it turns out doctors and researchers use humans as living experiments".

7960 · 01-16-2008, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Or their right to hope.

"right to hope" ?

this doesn't take that away

7960 · 01-16-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Spideynw

That is not abuse, that is a misdiagnosis! A patient could be given approved medicine for a misdiagnosis and have the same thing happen.

you have cancer, a doc says "gee, I'm working on these different versions of cyanide. I wonder if it'll cure cancer!" and gives them to you and you die.

That's abuse. And don't think it won't happen. Because it's illegal NOW and it already happens.

RockPusher · 01-16-2008, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

"right to hope" ?

this doesn't take that away

It does if you place your hope in a treatment that is denied to you.

7960 · 01-16-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It does if you place your hope in a treatment that is denied to you.

That's your problem, not theirs.

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

That's your problem, not theirs.

WTF? Hey here is this potentially life saving treatment that could save your life. Oh wait. the FDA said You can't have it. Sorry you have to die. Hey pal it's your problem that you are going to die. Deal with it.

You can't be serious.

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

It's not.

But that's not what I said. What I said was "and it turns out doctors and researchers use humans as living experiments".

Of course they are living experiments. People willingly subject themselves to experimental medicine all of the time. How many times have you heard ads on the radio for some clinical trials that pay you to try some new treatment. Those people are willing participants in a medical experiment. So what? That's thier choice. If someone is going to die anyway, and they want to potentially save future lives (and maybe thier own) by participating in a medical experiment, why should the FDA keep them from doing it?

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

and when it happens when a doctor is pushing a certain type of treatment that hasn't been approved of yet = abuse

That's already illegal, it always has been. Even if you let patients try experimental drugs, if the doctor lies to you to get you to do it, it would still be illegal.

Spideynw · 01-16-2008, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

Oh, well if you say so.

You said it first, without providing any backup, that there will be abuse.

bheld · 01-16-2008, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

That's already illegal, it always has been. Even if you let patients try experimental drugs, if the doctor lies to you to get you to do it, it would still be illegal.

I think the point is that there isn't a reason to lie to patients in this situation, because they are already so desperate that they will try anything. That's a situation that makes them ripe for exploitation.

Spideynw · 01-16-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

I think the point is that there isn't a reason to lie to patients in this situation, because they are already so desperate that they will try anything. That's a situation that makes them ripe for exploitation.

Huh? How are they going to be exploited?

7960 · 01-16-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

WTF? Hey here is this potentially life saving treatment that could save your life. Oh wait. the FDA said You can't have it. Sorry you have to die. Hey pal it's your problem that you are going to die. Deal with it.

You can't be serious.

Yes I'm serious. Shoving drugs in dying people to see what happens shouldn't be allowed. The "potentially life-saving" crap is lawyer-speak for "my side wants it so I'll say what makes it sound the worst to the biggest number of people." In other words "potentially life-saving" is crap. From post #1 there's no evidence the drugs are potentially life-saving.

7960 · 01-16-2008, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spideynw

Huh? How are they going to be exploited?

Do I have to say it for a 4th time?

Or are you trying to say they *can't* be exploited because they're dying?

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Yes I'm serious. Shoving drugs in dying people to see what happens shouldn't be allowed. The "potentially life-saving" crap is lawyer-speak for "my side wants it so I'll say what makes it sound the worst to the biggest number of people." In other words "potentially life-saving" is crap. From post #1 there's no evidence the drugs are potentially life-saving.

You are sort of skipping over the whole part where the person agrees to be part of the test.
And yes, they are potentialy life saving. That is the whole point and it's not crap. What drug are you talking about when you say that it's not life saving? you mean those drugs that havn't been invented yet? You already know the future? AMAZING!

WickedLou9 · 01-16-2008, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Do I have to say it for a 4th time?

Or are you trying to say they *can't* be exploited because they're dying?

All patients have the potential to be exploited. We shoudln't prevent people from getting a treatment that might help them just because some doctors exploit thier patients.

Spideynw · 01-17-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Do I have to say it for a 4th time?

Or are you trying to say they *can't* be exploited because they're dying?

You seem to be talking about someone lying to another person, to convince them to take a drug, which would still be illegal. It is called fraud. Legalizing these drugs would not mean fraud would be legal. How many times does it have to be explained to you?