Sick of hearing people peddling easy answers?

[bheld]

Me too. If I hear another person say "government is the problem" I'm going to puke. There are no solutions coming from the free enterprise crowd except a hopeful belief that things will work out when we take power away from the citizens of this country and give it to private corporations. The genius of their movement however is in the complete lack of benchmarks for success that allow it to keep killing government, experiencing failure, and then blaming it all on government again and starting the cycle anew. We will keep hearing excuses until every single government function is privatized.

As a teacher, it would be like me holding the belief that my students are ineducable. I could do whatever I wanted without worrying about how well they were learning because I didn't think they could in the first place. If they fail I simply point out that I've been right all along. If they succeed I chalk it up to my provision of an environment where they don't get anything handed to them and work hard for themselves. Win-win. The problem is that I would have values that are fundamentally against the position I am working in.

It's time to think about issues instead of merely towing the party line. If you believe unfettered free markets are the solution to everything, instead of repeating that belief constantly in every thread why not take a moment and think about why you believe so deeply in a theory that has never been fully applied with success. Forsaking democratic power for bigger roles as consumers has never worked to ensure a free and fair society. In fact, it has served to accelerate divisions in every instance I've ever seen.

You say it will work. That's fine. Now start thinking and talking about WHY it will work.

[7960]

Post this "over there" and you're going to get a bunch of "the market will work it out!" answers. I've stopped addressing them with anything but

" FREE MARKET! FREE MARKET!! "

for exactly the reason you say...they believe companies will do right and when they don't they believe people will stop buying their products so they'll have to change or die. They don't recognize that system doesn't work until AFTER there's bad, AFTER tens of thousands of gallons of shit are poured down drains, AFTER people are killed.

[thewise1]

And likewise, if I hear one more person say "more government regulation is what we need", I think I'm going to puke.



They've done a great job thus far, look where we're at!

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by thewise1

They've done a great job thus far, look where we're at!

The most powerful country in the world?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Scrum

The most powerful country in the world?

Largest GDP out of any country by far. We have a GDP that is 3 times the size of the number 2 country, Japan.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Scrum

The most powerful country in the world?

Shame it's not sustainable with current policies...

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Shame it's not sustainable with current policies...

Its not sustainable with the current tax and spend policy. If you are going to cut taxes, you must cut spending. You can't keep giving out 150 billion in tax rebates here, 9 billion dollars a month to Iraq there, 30 billion dollars a year to Israel, 100 billion for Katrina aftermath, bla bla bla... and keep it sustained.

Eventually some where we will have to bite the bullet.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Its not sustainable with the current tax and spend policy. If you are going to cut taxes, you must cut spending. You can't keep giving out 150 billion in tax rebates here, 9 billion dollars a month to Iraq there, 30 billion dollars a year to Israel, 100 billion for Katrina aftermath, bla bla bla... and keep it sustained.

Eventually some where we will have to bite the bullet.

Unfortunately I think it's going to take a kick in the stomach for people to realize this. People don't like to change anything. Untill the government grinds to a hault because it can't borrow any more people won't care. The first time that every federal employee in the coutry misses a paycheck or two, that will be when something gives. Maybe.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Its not sustainable with the current tax and spend policy. If you are going to cut taxes, you must cut spending. You can't keep giving out 150 billion in tax rebates here, 9 billion dollars a month to Iraq there, 30 billion dollars a year to Israel, 100 billion for Katrina aftermath, bla bla bla... and keep it sustained.

Eventually some where we will have to bite the bullet.

Well this I can agree with, of course.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by bheld

Me too. If I hear another person say "government is the problem" I'm going to puke. There are no solutions coming from the free enterprise crowd except a hopeful belief that things will work out when we take power away from the citizens of this country and give it to private corporations. The genius of their movement however is in the complete lack of benchmarks for success that allow it to keep killing government, experiencing failure, and then blaming it all on government again and starting the cycle anew. We will keep hearing excuses until every single government function is privatized.

It may be your power to frame arguments like this in the classroom. But you cannot do it on the board. So go ahead and

The free market is hardly just a matter of corporations. Talk about political buzz words! And it is hardly about hope and wishful thinking. It is very much about what has proven to work in most endeavours, including I might add education! It tries to find out what works best without the ability to make institutions out of failure. In those very few areas where it does not work well we do indeed need government. Being critical of government is not a call to end it, but to make it function as best as possible in those areas where needed, and only that. Hardly killing government. Certainly not by starvation!

The benchmarks have already been proven time and again, while those in government seem to be made up of throwing more money at the same unsolved problems, like education, over and over again. Where is the learning curve on that?

[kinggovernor]

the only thing worse than no government is bad government.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Unfortunately I think it's going to take a kick in the stomach for people to realize this. People don't like to change anything. Untill the government grinds to a hault because it can't borrow any more people won't care. The first time that every federal employee in the coutry misses a paycheck or two, that will be when something gives. Maybe.

Did you know entitlements may be as high as 70% of the Federal budget by 2030!

[bheld]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

It may be your power to frame arguments like this in the classroom. But you cannot do it on the board. So go ahead and

The free market is hardly just a matter of corporations. Talk about political buzz words! And it is hardly about hope and wishful thinking. It is very much about what has proven to work in most endeavours, including I might add education! It tries to find out what works best without the ability to make institutions out of failure. In those very few areas where it does not work well we do indeed need government. Being critical of government is not a call to end it, but to make it function as best as possible in those areas where needed, and only that. Hardly killing government. Certainly not by starvation!

The benchmarks have already been proven time and again, while those in government seem to be made up of throwing more money at the same unsolved problems, like education, over and over again. Where is the learning curve on that?

Privatization has not worked in education. Wishful thinking indeed.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by bheld

Privatization has not worked in education. Wishful thinking indeed.

what?

I guess that's why private universities (of good repute, of course) are more prestigious than state schools, right?

[bheld]

Originally Posted by thewise1

what?

I guess that's why private universities (of good repute, of course) are more prestigious than state schools, right?

I don't think he was talking about postsecondary education. Either way, "privatization" is not a term thrown about when talking about it. I was referring to K-12 education in that post.

But to address your point, quality is not the end-all be-all of the debate. Access is obviously more important than quality, even at the university level. This is on a macro scale of course.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by bheld

I don't think he was talking about postsecondary education. Either way, "privatization" is not a term thrown about when talking about it. I was referring to K-12 education in that post.

But to address your point, quality is not the end-all be-all of the debate. Access is obviously more important than quality, even at the university level. This is on a macro scale of course.

Talk about a mantra for mediocrity ... "It doesn't matter if you can't read, at least you have access to books!"

[bheld]

Originally Posted by Publius

Talk about a mantra for mediocrity ... "It doesn't matter if you can't read, at least you have access to books!"

I appreciate the reductio ad absurdum schtick sometimes, but you're going a bit off the deep end with it.

[Publius]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a society with a lot of smart people and a lot of stupid people than a society with everyone being stupid. Though if everyone is stupid that makes it easier for those in government to control their lives, so I can see why an obvious fan of big government such as yourself prefers academic mediocrity.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Publius

Talk about a mantra for mediocrity ... "It doesn't matter if you can't read, at least you have access to books!"

You can go to college!! Can't read, but you could go to college!!