Florida Election Thread...(dems and reps)

[garbagemanlb]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Once again lets look at some facts:

1) It was a real primary, even if you say "no delegates right now!"

2 million people voted Democratic, in a state that is increasingly going darker red despite trends in every other state (except LA)

That's more than twice that voted in 2004

You don't double the primary vote and call it a "beauty contest"

2) Florida is actually the best case for deciding how the voters are feelings

There were no big rallies to get people all emotional, no constant television ads, push polls, etc to annoy people to death

There were debates that anyone in Florida could watch, stories in the media they could read...lots and lots of resources for people to decide if it was worth it or not to vote, and who to vote for...and people clearly decided to vote and make it a real primary (with no delegates...yet)

Also, Florida is most like a national election...the demographics are almost exactly like that of the US, except for a slightly older trend, but much more than an unrealistic NV and IA caucus, and extremely more diverse than SC or NH

3) Obama showed his weaknesses...again

Despite the fact that Obama got a huge number of voters to turn out, his base was there...guess who decided to skip it and watch TV? Young voters, who made up a paltry amount of the final votes

Ofcourse, race was a factor, Obama got...wait for it...70%+ of the black vote...Hillary got 60%+ of the Hispanic vote...sound familiar? Hillary also convincingly won the white vote, and more so the white female vote

So Hillary wins Hispanics, Whites, etc

What does Obama win, the black vote...and surprise surprise, the youth vote didn't turn out

This is the biggest indicator I've seen that Obama will
A) Lose big on Feb 5th
B) If he does get nominated, he'll carry the black vote...the youth vote won't turn out, and he'll go down in flames as the coalition he built is barely getting him by in the primaries, after it falls apart if he were nominated, it would lead to a general election embarrasment

I'm interested in hearing your defense of Hillary (as she can apparently do no wrong) concerning her campaigning in Florida even after promising along with everyone else not to?

I am so disgusted with her it is unbelievable. And now she is going to turn around and try and use Michigan and Florida to her advantage even though no one else ran in those states. It is far beyond the point for me at which I would willingly vote third party even if my vote decided between her and Romney/McCain.

I also think it is ridiculous that you keep trying to turn this into a race issue when it isn't one. Iowa. That's all I'll say to your argument.

[Thorgrim]

Iowa was an open caucus where a white person had to stand up infront of an audience, where I would imagine at least one minority was present, and decide whether they were going to inform the audience they were going with the white establishment candidate, or give the charismatic black guy with no scandals a chance

The pressure to vote Obama in that situation is only slightly less than overwhelming, to an undecided voter

As a person who has seen literally over 100 jury pools, I can tell you white guilt exists in America to this day

From talking to juries after the vote, they always tell me that even in overwhelmingly guilty cases, the first vote always goes with many white jurors going "not guilty' and the consensus amongst defense attorneys and prosecutors is that they are subconciously trying to broadcast that they are not racist, even though it makes no logical sense

[Thorgrim]

On "breaking the Florida pledge"

As I've shown in other threads, Obama deliberately broke the pledge by targeting ads into Florida while Edwards and Hillary (who were both running a lot of ads) easily arranged it so the ads would not shoot into Florida

Hillary said at the time, she didn't know how she'd react after someone had broken the rules...her big counter-move...she had two closed parties where the press was barred from attending...I don't even know if there was a campaign speech, I don't even know if you can even call it campaigning...it's just the media telling you what they think will get them more viewers

Also, ALL serious candidates had "private parties" that they all went to...to raise money, and people made off-hand comments how silly Obama looked telling the press "no i can't talk to you"...when Hillary went down there, she did not engage the florida press either

All the arguments you are making about Hillary were made towards Gore, and in that case they did cost him Florida and possibly NH, and look where it got us

Gore used underhanded tactics to derail bradley and have a real primary
Gore was part of the corrupt Clinton team
Gore was a centrist with no liberal ideas or passion
Gore was cold and calculating
Gore was basically the same as a Republican
Voting for Gore is a vote for non-progressive values and corporate-run America
Gore would be just as bad a president as Bush

I don't need to explain how wrong your crowd was then, and how wrong they are now

[Ironduke]

100 years in Iraq

McCain is not talking about 100 years of fighting terrorists and insurgents in Iraq, he's talking about a continued US military presence after peace is secured there.

Amnesty for Illegals

Call it what you want, it's not amnesty and I'm sure you know that. You're an anarcho-capitalist, right? Don't you support the abolition of the state itself? Such as the United States?

The problem with illegal immigration lies with domestic demand for their labor. The best way to cut this demand is to impose harsh penalties on employers who hire them, such as Arizona now does with their new law.

Zero understanding of Economics

Mitt Romney had four years to fix the Massachusetts economy and instead of fixing it, he won the bronze medal for worst state economy in the United States. If not for post-Katrina Louisiana, he would have won the silver. Ron Paul has a great understanding of economics... 18th century economics.

[Ironduke]

As I've shown in other threads, Obama deliberately broke the pledge by targeting ads into Florida

Umm.... no. Obama ran national ads and had no intent to target Florida audiences.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Umm.... no. Obama ran national ads and had no intent to target Florida audiences.

Edwards, Hillary, et al had no problem with national ads not going into Florida, are you saying Obama is that stupid?

[Ironduke]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Edwards, Hillary, et al had no problem with national ads not going into Florida, are you saying Obama is that stupid?

This is classic Clinton hyperbole. Ads run on nationwide networks are going to appear in every state. This is a far cry from running ads on local Florida channels.

How about this... you give a few examples of ads run on the same nationwide channels by the Clinton and Edwards campaign that didn't appear in Florida.

Not that I really care, of course. I'm a Republican and a McCain supporter. The more bullcrap between the Democratic candidates the better in my view.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ironduke

This is classic Clinton hyperbole. Ads run on nationwide networks are going to appear in every state. This is a far cry from running ads on local Florida channels.

How about this... you give a few examples of ads run on the same nationwide channels by the Clinton and Edwards campaign that didn't appear in Florida.

Not that I really care, of course. I'm a Republican and a McCain supporter. The more bullcrap between the Democratic candidates the better in my view.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

considering NO ads appeared in Florida from any Democratic candidate except Obama

[Galactic Gigolo]

Originally Posted by Ironduke

McCain is not talking about 100 years of fighting terrorists and insurgents in Iraq, he's talking about a continued US military presence after peace is secured there.

Man, I sure can't wait for peace to be secured in Iraq

My estimate is the year 2107.

Call it what you want, it's not amnesty and I'm sure you know that.

Yes, it is.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Ironduke

This is classic Clinton hyperbole. Ads run on nationwide networks are going to appear in every state. This is a far cry from running ads on local Florida channels.

How about this... you give a few examples of ads run on the same nationwide channels by the Clinton and Edwards campaign that didn't appear in Florida.

Not that I really care, of course. I'm a Republican and a McCain supporter. The more bullcrap between the Democratic candidates the better in my view.

What? Everyone except Obama was able to keep their national ads from going into Florida.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Fed Up

Where are all the Ron Paul supporters in this thread? Oh...wait...that's me...

All I can say is....you reap what you sow...

Here's what McCain sow's....

100 years in Iraq
Amnesty for Illegals
Zero understanding of Economics

We'll see what America reaps when Clinton annihilates him in November.....

However...I haven't given up the ship blimp...

My first blog comes out tomorrow (assuming no tech difficulties).

The title is:

The Ron Paul rEVOLution, Super Tuesday and "The Message"

Fed Up

Ron Paul supporters have no problem talking about stuff online...they just can't seem to get to the polls to actually vote.

[Fed Up]

[quote=Ironduke;164482]McCain is not talking about 100 years of fighting terrorists and insurgents in Iraq, he's talking about a continued US military presence after peace is secured there.

I said he wants to stay 100 years in Iraq...nothing more.

Call it what you want, it's not amnesty and I'm sure you know that. You're an anarcho-capitalist, right? Don't you support the abolition of the state itself? Such as the United States?

Amnesty McCain style: Mark Krikorian on the Elections on National Review Online and McCain Is the Amnesty Candidate - HUMAN EVENTS

As an anarcho-capitalist I reject "the" state, not the United States. It is a "political movement seeking a free society without rule."

The problem with illegal immigration lies with domestic demand for their labor. The best way to cut this demand is to impose harsh penalties on employers who hire them, such as Arizona now does with their new law.

Yes, going after businesses is good for the market isn't it? How about we take away all the incentives for them to come here like free healthcare, food stamps, federal housing, and birthright citizenship? McCain Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006) Where does the Constitution grant rights to any illegals (outside of birthright)?

Mitt Romney had four years to fix the Massachusetts economy and instead of fixing it, he won the bronze medal for worst state economy in the United States. If not for post-Katrina Louisiana, he would have won the silver.

I didn't mention anything about Romney did I?

Ron Paul has a great understanding of economics... 18th century economics.

Actually Paul has a great understanding of Mises, "Theory of Money and Credit" which he references in his books on the Gold Standard. Mises lived in the 20th century.

I noticed how you didn't say one word in defense of McCain when it comes to HIS understanding of economics. Quite telling eh?

Fed Up

[Fed Up]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Ron Paul supporters have no problem talking about stuff online...they just can't seem to get to the polls to actually vote.

They did in Nevada and Louisiana....

But I'm not saying the turnout has been great...

Of course MSM, to include radio, television and print has been great in giving Ron Paul equal time as, at a minimum, Giuliani right? Not so much...

Fed Up

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Fed Up

They did in Nevada and Louisiana....

But I'm not saying the turnout has been great...

Of course MSM, to include radio, television and print has been great in giving Ron Paul equal time as, at a minimum, Giuliani right? Not so much...

Fed Up

Well when he has 8 times as much money as Paul, of course he'd get more coverage.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Well when he has 8 times as much money as Paul, of course he'd get more coverage.

He has done quite well considering he DOESN'T EXIST IN THE MEDIA

[Publius]

With about 99 percent of Democratic precincts reporting, Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York had 50 percent of the vote. Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois placed second with 33 percent, and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina was in third with 14 percent.

With no delegates at stake, Clinton nonetheless claimed victory, thanking her supporters. She has called on the Democratic Party to lift sanctions on the state.

"I promise you I will do everything I can to make sure not only are Florida's Democratic delegates seated, but Florida is in the winning column for the Democrats in 2008," Clinton told supporters Tuesday night.

I wonder if she would be saying this had Obama won in Florida?

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by hsmith

He has done quite well considering he DOESN'T EXIST IN THE MEDIA

I have seen him mentioned in the media.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Publius

With about 99 percent of Democratic precincts reporting, Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York had 50 percent of the vote. Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois placed second with 33 percent, and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina was in third with 14 percent.

With no delegates at stake, Clinton nonetheless claimed victory, thanking her supporters. She has called on the Democratic Party to lift sanctions on the state.

"I promise you I will do everything I can to make sure not only are Florida's Democratic delegates seated, but Florida is in the winning column for the Democrats in 2008," Clinton told supporters Tuesday night.

I wonder if she would be saying this had Obama won in Florida?

We'll never know...but someone has to do it. The whole situation is ridiculous.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I have seen him mentioned in the media.

You are being dishonest with yourself.

There is a big difference between how he is talked about and how others are.