Your weekly liberal assesment of the economy

[6SpeedTA95]

Historical Income Tables - Households

Inflation adjusted...

Looks like the bush tax cuts made up for any loss of income in the last recession anyways.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Of course you would. He is saying exactly what you need him to say. He is a Democratic hack that twists things around to make things look the way he NEEDS them to look so he can get a job when/if a Dem gets into office.

Sweet so any expert that agrees with the administration can be written off as well.

I guess there are really no experts on anything out there.

And I would love to see proof of this, other than using his political ideologies as some kind of proof.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Let's look at the basics:

Which is cheaper,
clothes from outlet stores in the 90s or today?
Milk/Lunchmeat/Bread?
Houses?
Phone Service?

It's either the prices have gone up, stayed about the same, etc

While on my end, incomes haven't gone up for the middle/lower class

it all depends on where you shop

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Historical Income Tables - Households

Inflation adjusted...

Looks like the bush tax cuts made up for any loss of income in the last recession anyways.

best post of the thread!

/thread

[Thorgrim]

As publius shows, its kept pace with inflation...it has not "significantly fallen"

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

best post of the thread!

/thread

All it shows is that income from 1989 and 2004 went up a little over 1000

However, from 99 to today they've gone DOWN over a 1000


Why, after the HUGE TAX CUT are we making less in 2006 than we were in 1999?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

All it shows is that income from 1989 and 2004 went up a little over 1000

However, from 99 to today they've gone DOWN over a 1000


Why, after the HUGE TAX CUT are we making less in 2006 than we were in 1999?

oh i don't know, perhaps the cyclical nature of the economy? perhaps other influences like the tech boom (and subsequent burst) influenced such things? you think this is as simple as just looking at numbers and blaming the government? you're wrong.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

All it shows is that income from 1989 and 2004 went up a little over 1000

However, from 99 to today they've gone DOWN over a 1000


Why, after the HUGE TAX CUT are we making less in 2006 than we were in 1999?

And the average tax cuts for those with median household incomes was 1183 dollars.

what was the drop in income? About 1200 bucks? hmmm...looks like it offset it to me.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Yeah and the average TV in 1972 cost what 400 bucks and was 18 inches? The average tv today cost about 600 bucks and its 32 inches in size and is HD....

The average car in 1972 cost about 4g's had a fantastic safety device called "the seatbelt" and only about half the households in the US had more than one. Now cars have a host of safety devices and aren't built like shit. There's also more than 2 cars per household. Homes are about 30% bigger and built with better insulation, heating/cooling equipment.

The flaw in your arguement.. and it's a serious one.. is that people don't go out every week and buy a TV.. How much did you spend on TV's last week?
nothing? how about last month? nothing? how about last year? nothing?

I spent 500 bucks on a TV 3 years ago..

I spend probably 130 a week on food, 200 a month for utilities, 150 a month on gasoline, 1700 a month for my mortgage.... etc...

If all of those goods are more expensive... does it really matter in the slightest that I saved 100 bucks on a TV or on a computer?

People can also no longer get by on a single income for the most part. If you are raising a family, chances are both parents will have to work. There is a cost there and you can't measure it directly in financial terms.. some of it you can, like paying 500 dollars a week for child daycare....

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

yah, everyone i know that graduates with a business degree picks up a job on wall street making 150k straight outta college. maybe i'm just surrounded by the better of the mix, but still, i've seen no problems with anybody i know getting jobs. i know 23 yr olds making close to 200k, and i hate it.

You are so full of shit it's not even funny, and if you do know a guy making 150K straight out of college, you surely realize this a black swan.

The average starting salary for Harvard MBAs in '05 was $117,00 WITH bonus. You're telling me that your friends with a simple BA from somewhere are earning almost 200K straight out of college??? So they're earning more than the average MBA from the #1 business school in the country who has more education and more experience? I will comfortably call 100% bullshit on your claim.

USNews.com: America's Best Graduate Schools 2007: Top Business Schools

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The flaw in your arguement.. and it's a serious one.. is that people don't go out every week and buy a TV.. How much did you spend on TV's last week?
nothing? how about last month? nothing? how about last year? nothing?

I spent 500 bucks on a TV 3 years ago..

I spend probably 130 a week on food, 200 a month for utilities, 150 a month on gasoline, 1700 a month for my mortgage.... etc...

If all of those goods are more expensive... does it really matter in the slightest that I saved 100 bucks on a TV or on a computer?

People can also no longer get by on a single income for the most part. If you are raising a family, chances are both parents will have to work. There is a cost there and you can't measure it directly in financial terms.. some of it you can, like paying 500 dollars a week for child daycare....

It's not a flaw its ALL directly related to our standard of living.

Food has gone up most definately...

Look at utilities from 1982 to now utilities have not gone up with inflation. Hell when my dad died in 2002 I found a BUNCH of old paystubs, bills etc...I was surprised to see his electric bill only about 5 dollars cheaper than his current electric bill. Why? Cost per KwH...now the last few years the price has gone from about 8cents to 10 cents per KwH around here but even in the early 80s it was 6 cents per KwH here.


edit: Natural gas also stayed almost flat for 20 years before finally going up. After adjusting for inflation NG is not much higher now than it was in 1975.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The flaw in your arguement.. and it's a serious one.. is that people don't go out every week and buy a TV.. How much did you spend on TV's last week?
nothing? how about last month? nothing? how about last year? nothing?

I spent 500 bucks on a TV 3 years ago..

I spend probably 130 a week on food, 200 a month for utilities, 150 a month on gasoline, 1700 a month for my mortgage.... etc...

If all of those goods are more expensive... does it really matter in the slightest that I saved 100 bucks on a TV or on a computer?

People can also no longer get by on a single income for the most part. If you are raising a family, chances are both parents will have to work. There is a cost there and you can't measure it directly in financial terms.. some of it you can, like paying 500 dollars a week for child daycare....

On more thing, if people lived like they did in the 1950s they would be able to get buy on one income. You can get by on 40 grand a year here, but you're nto going to have a 2000 sq foot home (something that was extremely rare in the 50s)....you're not goin to have 2 or 3 cars (they had 1 typically in the 50s)

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

It's not a flaw its ALL directly related to our standard of living.

Food has gone up most definately...

Look at utilities from 1982 to now utilities have not gone up with inflation. Hell when my dad died in 2002 I found a BUNCH of old paystubs, bills etc...I was surprised to see his electric bill only about 5 dollars cheaper than his current electric bill. Why? Cost per KwH...now the last few years the price has gone from about 8cents to 10 cents per KwH around here but even in the early 80s it was 6 cents per KwH here.


edit: Natural gas also stayed almost flat for 20 years before finally going up. After adjusting for inflation NG is not much higher now than it was in 1975.

but the overall consumer price index is still up. some things are stagnant, some are down, some are up. overall, the average is up.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

You are so full of shit it's not even funny, and if you do know a guy making 150K straight out of college, you surely realize this a black swan.

The average starting salary for Harvard MBAs in '05 was $117,00 WITH bonus. You're telling me that your friends with a simple BA from somewhere are earning almost 200K straight out of college??? So they're earning more than the average MBA from the #1 business school in the country who has more education and more experience? I will comfortably call 100% bullshit on your claim.

yeah, one guy works on wall street, started with 120k base...got bonuses...that boosted it up. he recently got a raise...

another guy just works in nashville in sales for medical instruments...he goes into surgery with the docs, etc. he's very good at what he does, and makes a very similar amount.

so yeah, think what you want, i realize the majority of the business graduates aren't like this, but you also have to realize that the people i know aren't exactly your typical graduates. vandy has a top 20 business school, and MIT's sloan school is top notch. but yeah, like i said, people i know.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

yeah, one guy works on wall street, started with 120k base...got bonuses...that boosted it up. he recently got a raise...

another guy just works in nashville in sales for medical instruments...he goes into surgery with the docs, etc. he's very good at what he does, and makes a very similar amount.

so yeah, think what you want, i realize the majority of the business graduates aren't like this, but you also have to realize that the people i know aren't exactly your typical graduates. vandy has a top 20 business school, and MIT's sloan school is top notch. but yeah, like i said, people i know.

In other words it's not statistically significant, or relevant to this discussion and you are just bragging

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

In other words it's not statistically significant, or relevant to this discussion and you are just bragging

heh, it means if you go into business, and you do well in school, you'll be ok. what more of an example of common sense do you need?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

heh, it means if you go into business, and you do well in school, you'll be ok. what more of an example of common sense do you need?

That's not common sense. That's nonsense everyone can't be business majors. Everyone can't go to a top tier business school. Everyone can't graduate in the top of thier class.
Moreover not everyone wants to do business or would be good at it. We need doctors and lawyers and computer programmers and social workers too. If everyone was a business major and got jobs in business, not only would the economy probably collapse, but the salaries would drop off as well due to simple supply and demand.

So you say that some tiny minority of people in the US earn 6 figures. Yeah I think we all knew that already seeing as the average household income in the US is somewhere around 45K a year.
Income 2005 - Three-Year-Average Median Household Income by State: 2001-2005

facts > anecdotal evidence

[Thorgrim]

6speed keeps doing the exact thing, he keeps refering to almost 60 years ago as his measuring stick "well in 1950..."

It's the old tactic of digging in the numbers deep enough until you find favorable information

In the early 90s, unlike you said, we had cable tv, basic foods, houses etc

The real dollar prices have either BARELY fallen, not fallen or EVEN GONE UP, despite the fact that its being argued that there have been SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENTS

you haven't shown anyone SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENTS in basic areas that a lower/middle class family spends on a monthly basis

if you can't show it, then you argument falls apart because then that means stagnant income has been devastating while the rich's income soaring has meant the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

[WickedLou9]

http://faculty.tcu.edu/jlovett/econ_...ome%20Dist.pdf

MOre interesting information about income distribution