What's the purpose of education? Part 1 in a continuing series. - Page 2

WickedLou9 · 01-31-2008, 01:28 PM

Home schoolers are religous nut jobs like the Westboro Baptist church.

Publius · 01-31-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Home schoolers are religous nut jobs like the Westboro Baptist church.

some, but not all. I've not a few homeschoolers that are perfectly normal with perfectly normal parents.

WickedLou9 · 01-31-2008, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

some, but not all. I've not a few homeschoolers that are perfectly normal with perfectly normal parents.

I'm sure there are always exceptions. But I am pretty sure that most people home school because they want to include religion as a big part in thier kids education.

Publius · 01-31-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I'm sure there are always exceptions. But I am pretty sure that most people home school because they want to include religion as a big part in thier kids education.

And that impacts your life ... how? It is their right to teach their children what they want, just like if you wanted to you could teach your children about the flying spaghetti monster.

It may not be desirable, but to make it illegal would be

-worthy of epic proportions. A parent has the right to choose what their child is taught so long as that teaching isn't direct incitement to illegal activity.

bheld · 01-31-2008, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

And that impacts your life ... how? It is their right to teach their children what they want, just like if you wanted to you could teach your children about the flying spaghetti monster.

It may not be desirable, but to make it illegal would be -worthy of epic proportions. A parent has the right to choose what their child is taught so long as that teaching isn't direct incitement to illegal activity.

Their right to home school should be ended if the students are not making academic progress in the areas society deems important.

Meaning of course that Pastafarianism is okay as long as the kids are still learning arithmetic and rhetoric.

WickedLou9 · 01-31-2008, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

And that impacts your life ... how? It is their right to teach their children what they want, just like if you wanted to you could teach your children about the flying spaghetti monster.

It may not be desirable, but to make it illegal would be -worthy of epic proportions. A parent has the right to choose what their child is taught so long as that teaching isn't direct incitement to illegal activity.

Well it depends. It sort of touches on many different areas. Your kids are not possesions that you can do with as you please. They are people with rights just like you and me. It's obviously a little more complex than that because it's your own personal legal responsibility to raise them and provide for them. If you fail to do that you can be held legally responsible. The problem is that while kids are human beings just like you and me, they need to grow and learn and have alot of guidance before they are ready to enter into our "adult" society as productive members. As thier legal guardians, you have a responsibility to provide that guidance. If you decide you want to home school your kids so that you can teach them to be nazi's, to hate jews and blacks and to learn only the bible and nothing else, you are not only failing to fulfull your obligation, but you are doing that child a disservice and society a disservice as well. I think it comes down to responsibility vs ownership. If you were talking about a car or a computer or an oak tree... sure. You can do with it whatever you want. But since kids are not property there is a different level of freedom. You can't beat your kids with a hockey stick even if you think that you are just dispensing punishment for bad behavior.

Education is sort of similar. INorder for that kid to grow up and be able to function in society, they need certain skills, they need to learn certain things. So we make schooling mandatory. If you want to do it yourself, that's fine. But there has to be some way of making sure you aren't teaching them the virtues of Alqueda in the place of reading and math. It's not really your own personal choice to make. Your child can't possibly know that what you are doing is bad for them. They depend on you for everything. We obviously DO allow home schooling today and I don't have a problem with it. I think it's probably a bad choice because it deprives those kids of the social learning that they need to do at school in order to be able to function in society as well as they can. I think we are obliged to set some basic standards that must be met if you want to home school your kids. If you meet those and also want to teach your kids about Jesus or Allah or whatever, that's fine.

Publius · 01-31-2008, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Well it depends. It sort of touches on many different areas. Your kids are not possesions that you can do with as you please. They are people with rights just like you and me. It's obviously a little more complex than that because it's your own personal legal responsibility to raise them and provide for them. If you fail to do that you can be held legally responsible. The problem is that while kids are human beings just like you and me, they need to grow and learn and have alot of guidance before they are ready to enter into our "adult" society as productive members. As thier legal guardians, you have a responsibility to provide that guidance. If you decide you want to home school your kids so that you can teach them to be nazi's, to hate jews and blacks and to learn only the bible and nothing else, you are not only failing to fulfull your obligation, but you are doing that child a disservice and society a disservice as well. I think it comes down to responsibility vs ownership. If you were talking about a car or a computer or an oak tree... sure. You can do with it whatever you want. But since kids are not property there is a different level of freedom. You can't beat your kids with a hockey stick even if you think that you are just dispensing punishment for bad behavior.

Education is sort of similar. INorder for that kid to grow up and be able to function in society, they need certain skills, they need to learn certain things. So we make schooling mandatory. If you want to do it yourself, that's fine. But there has to be some way of making sure you aren't teaching them the virtues of Alqueda in the place of reading and math. It's not really your own personal choice to make. Your child can't possibly know that what you are doing is bad for them. They depend on you for everything. We obviously DO allow home schooling today and I don't have a problem with it. I think it's probably a bad choice because it deprives those kids of the social learning that they need to do at school in order to be able to function in society as well as they can. I think we are obliged to set some basic standards that must be met if you want to home school your kids. If you meet those and also want to teach your kids about Jesus or Allah or whatever, that's fine.

Hence why I have no problem with most of the regulations regarding requirements for any home school curriculum as well as requiring them to pass pretty much the exact same academic tests for graduation, because they're designed to ensure the child is being taught at least a mostly well-rounded set of skills/knowledge.

If the parent chooses to teach their child hatred on top of that, well then that is unfortunate but unavoidable. I have a feeling many of the parents that do that would drill it into their children's heads even if they were going to an out-of-home school.

JaJae · 01-31-2008, 02:44 PM

I support voucher programs, but I think it's flawed. The parent does not pay 100% of their child's education. We all pay for it through property taxes. Taking the tax revenue from one district and handing it to another doesn't make a lot of sense. There needs to be a better system in place.

Saying the parents don't have a choice but pay for both is also misleading. Nobody in my extended family has children who attend elementary schools. Yet we all pay rents/property taxes, etc with fund the schools. If parents were paying 100% of the taxes it costs to educate their children, then sure let them have THEIR tax money that went towards education and spend it on a different district. But that's not entirely the case.

The reason I support vouchers is because I think it has the potential to improve overall quality of education. But I do not think it is a permanent or viable solution as it stands.

bheld · 01-31-2008, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

I support voucher programs, but I think it's flawed. The parent does not pay 100% of their child's education. We all pay for it through property taxes. Taking the tax revenue from one district and handing it to another doesn't make a lot of sense. There needs to be a better system in place.

Saying the parents don't have a choice but pay for both is also misleading. Nobody in my extended family has children who attend elementary schools. Yet we all pay rents/property taxes, etc with fund the schools. If parents were paying 100% of the taxes it costs to educate their children, then sure let them have THEIR tax money that went towards education and spend it on a different district. But that's not entirely the case.

The reason I support vouchers is because I think it has the potential to improve overall quality of education. But I do not think it is a permanent or viable solution as it stands.

Everybody else is in agreement that society itself has a responsibility to educate the next generation. That's also the current basis for our system. With that in mind, the argument that not every person will benefit directly from public education is outside the scope of this discussion.

nbiggershaft · 01-31-2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Even though homeschoolers tend to perform better on tests and in college?

Even if they do it doesn't invalidate my statement.

nbiggershaft · 01-31-2008, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

No, 200-300 years ago people got schooled at home while they were helping support their families (esp in agrarian areas), but if that couldn't be done at home, as a last resort, local public schools could be attended. The last resort was in that they had no other choice. The parents couldn't do it for whatever reason (probably a lack of education).

In that way, the only result would be a more and more educated society because no educated parents would NOT educate their children. And uneducated parents had the choice of still educating their children despite their lack of personal ability.

Now public education isn't a last resort, it's the first. We all pay for it, regardless if our children use it, or if it's ineffective, or if it's not helpful to our child's specific situation.

I can get free food in most major cities that is taxpayer funded. Does the government have a monopoly on food.

hereticzero · 01-31-2008, 06:36 PM

The purpose of mandatory education in America is to indoctrinate our youth with the propaganda of the state, Democracy. It used to be Capitalism but the USA is preachy about Democracy these days.

nbiggershaft · 01-31-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by hereticzero

The purpose of mandatory education in America is to indoctrinate our youth with the propaganda of the state, Democracy. It used to be Capitalism but the USA is preachy about Democracy these days.

WickedLou9 · 01-31-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by hereticzero

The purpose of mandatory education in America is to indoctrinate our youth with the propaganda of the state, Democracy. It used to be Capitalism but the USA is preachy about Democracy these days.

Ardentfrost · 01-31-2008, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I can get free food in most major cities that is taxpayer funded. Does the government have a monopoly on food.

You're not forced by law to use the product or pay more for a similar one.

nbiggershaft · 01-31-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

You're not forced by law to use the product or pay more for a similar one.

You are forced to feed your kids yes.

Publius · 01-31-2008, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by hereticzero

The purpose of mandatory education in America is to indoctrinate our youth with the propaganda of the state, Democracy. It used to be Capitalism but the USA is preachy about Democracy these days.

post like this are the reason Libertarians are never taken seriously.

rational voices like mine get drowned out by the loony ones, and so no one ever hears anything but the loons.

JaJae · 01-31-2008, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

You are forced to feed your kids yes.

Not off government run food. Come on now. It would be like you had to pay to eat all of your meals at federally funded cafeterias and pay for the food even if you wish to eat at home.