What's the purpose of education? Part 1 in a continuing series.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by 7960

So according to you they're indoctrinating their children.

They do?

How is the govt infringing on arts funding and "extra" programs?

Is it a secret that since the implimentation of No Child Left Behind, low rated school have switched to teach to the test, and not necessarily emphasize things that can not be quantified with a test result. So, essentially these kids are getting an education of getting the right answer, the answer the system wants. If one is in a more affluent school district, then the extra curricular options are terrific. But, schools that aren't passing end up diverging their monies and the arts are usually the first to go.

It's like educating the Blue collar and the White collar.

I say this, and I'm not saying its even "bad". It's just the way it is. It is necessary, and our society has prospered because of it. But, pretending the elephant isn't there isn't benificial to everyone.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by 7960

I understand every word you wrote but I have no idea what you mean. Going back to other things you've posted you believe the american education system is bad because we're indoctrinating children by teaching them reading/math. But you believe the purpose of education is to indoctrinate children and seem to say that some level of reading/math is good.

I'm so confused.

No, I have not said it was bad. But, that is what its purpose is.

[bheld]

What elephant? Isn't the point of education to teach kids stuff we think is important? Everything else is just obfuscation.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by bheld

What elephant? Isn't the point of education to teach kids stuff we think is important? Everything else is just obfuscation.

this may clarify, forgive my cutand paste (holding baby)

Ivan Illich is perhaps the most well known person in this movement. In Deschooling Society, Illich calls for the disestablishment of schools. He claims that schooling confuses teaching with learning, grades with education, diplomas with competence, attendance with attainment, and, especially, process with substance. He writes that schools do not reward real achievement, only processes. Schools inhibit a person’s will and ability to self-learn, ultimately resulting in psychological impotence. He claims that forced schooling perverts the victims’ natural inclination to grow and learn and replaces it with the demand for instruction. Further, the current model of schooling, replete with credentials, betrays the value of a self-taught individual. What’s more, institutionalized schooling seeks to quantify the unquantifiable – human growth. For Illich, creative, exploratory learning requires an individual’s own initiative to truly impact the learner positively. He calls for learning networks that would allow people with similar interests to communicate and explore problems together. The internet makes his dream imminently realizable (Illich, 1970).

-wikipedia But i read his work at school... lol

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Is it a secret that since the implimentation of No Child Left Behind, low rated school have switched to teach to the test, and not necessarily emphasize things that can not be quantified with a test result.

That's not a secret. Schools that didn't meet the criteria

So, essentially these kids are getting an education of getting the right answer,

Well..............this is going to be controversial but I'll say it anyway. There's a list of shit kids need to know to pass the test. If the teachers teach to the test then the kids will get a basic/baseline education. It's not the optimal situation, but it's not the worst that could happen. In fact that base/baseline is better than what they were getting before, so "teach to the test" isn't as horrible as people make it sound.

I say this, and I'm not saying its even "bad". It's just the way it is. It is necessary, and our society has prospered because of it. But, pretending the elephant isn't there isn't benificial to everyone.

This is the part I don't get. "The elephant"......what is that? Is "the elephant" public education? Is it "indoctrination"? What is it?

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

this may clarify, forgive my cutand paste (holding baby)

Ivan Illich is perhaps the most well known person in this movement. In Deschooling Society, Illich calls for the disestablishment of schools.

He wants to have people search out other people who have the same interests so they can "learn" together and from each other. He'd have everyone start from zero...I guess the concept of standing on the shoulders of your predecessors is beyond him.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Colleges do have the core classes you need to know about. I was coming to college, and I did use the info I learned in my Western Civilization class in those core history classes I cared little about but was required. If I weren't going to come to college, it would be different.

In a free society with a democratic process, an ignorant population is incapable of informed decisions. If you do not understand history and economics, and you vote, you are a danger to a free society.

Everybody should be educated, or we need to rethink our voting requirements. It doesn't take much. Teach your kid to read and ensure that they read the classics and contemporary history from a variety of sources. That is a good start. The main problem with this today is that both parents must work to make ends meet. When the family existed, children learned at a fast rate. Mom and dad provided the basics, and the local schoolhouse provided the rest (8th grade). Most college grads would struggle with an old 8th grade test.... or outright fail it.


This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.


Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10.Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?

Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10.Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10.Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Is it a secret that since the implimentation of No Child Left Behind, low rated school have switched to teach to the test, and not necessarily emphasize things that can not be quantified with a test result. So, essentially these kids are getting an education of getting the right answer, the answer the system wants.

This is a perfect illustration that the goal of public schooling is not to create an educated class, but rather one that follows instructions.

The school system is not broken. It is functioning as intended. It is designed to prepare the labor pool and to contract the worker market by extending the educational period far into the 'productive' years and past the 'fire of youth'.

If we put 16 year olds into the work market and demanded that they make a living, it would collapse our society. Creating a large number of unemployed and displaced families creates the kind of discontent that revolutions are made of.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by 7960

He wants to have people search out other people who have the same interests so they can "learn" together and from each other. He'd have everyone start from zero...I guess the concept of standing on the shoulders of your predecessors is beyond him.

Although I do not fully prescribe to him, I believe that his grasp on the state of education is accurate. I just wish that the people doing the educating were honest about it, but then, who would listen to anything the educator said?

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Although I do not fully prescribe to him, I believe that his grasp on the state of education is accurate. I just wish that the people doing the educating were honest about it, but then, who would listen to anything the educator said?

You keep doing this.........."were honest about it."

About WHAT? That education is indoctrination?? Is it really "indoctrination" if you consider ANY and EVERY form of education indoctrination?

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by 7960

You keep doing this.........."were honest about it."

About WHAT? That education is indoctrination?? Is it really "indoctrination" if you consider ANY and EVERY form of education indoctrination?

I believe it REALLY is indoctrination.

And it doesn't stop at the Primary level, colleges are flea markets of encouraging the same. It is the very reason almost every college has freshman comp requirements. Because in order to graduate, not only must one have clear writing skills, but, it is compared to ideal texts in which students then attempt to create ideal texts. "If you want a degree, you must write a certain way" most certainly is indoctrination.

It is dishonest. Because the average student has no idea what the heck half the things they study are for, and neither do parents. (I believe anyways)

This notion of the purpose of education haunts me, because I have felt that there have been underscoring purposes to the hoops and jungles of education, it just wasn't until Graduate School that I learned that the debate of education existed.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I believe it REALLY is indoctrination.

And it doesn't stop at the Primary level, colleges are flea markets of encouraging the same. It is the very reason almost every college has freshman comp requirements. Because in order to graduate, not only must one have clear writing skills, but, it is compared to ideal texts in which students then attempt to create ideal texts. "If you want a degree, you must write a certain way" most certainly is indoctrination.

It is dishonest. Because the average student has no idea what the heck half the things they study are for, and neither do parents. (I believe anyways)

This notion of the purpose of education haunts me, because I have felt that there have been underscoring purposes to the hoops and jungles of education, it just wasn't until Graduate School that I learned that the debate of education existed.

You can call it what you want (it's not really indoctrination) but making sure that everybody is able to communicate in a way in which they will be taken seriously is not something to despair over.

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I believe it REALLY is indoctrination.

And it doesn't stop at the Primary level, colleges are flea markets of encouraging the same. It is the very reason almost every college has freshman comp requirements. Because in order to graduate, not only must one have clear writing skills, but, it is compared to ideal texts in which students then attempt to create ideal texts. "If you want a degree, you must write a certain way" most certainly is indoctrination.

There is a difference. Indoctrination is telling someone what to believe. In your example the person isn't told what to think in order to graduate, just how to present it. I have friends who get essays with writing that looks more like IM-speak. They actually have to circle and correct shit with LOL and b4 for "before" and "U" instead of "you." It would be indoctrination if the teacher told them *what* to think, but like you said they're not being told what to think, just how to write it. And yes, I'm sure there are some teachers who tell kids what to think and I think they're bad teachers for it. I also think they're in the minority.

It is dishonest. Because the average student has no idea what the heck half the things they study are for, and neither do parents. (I believe anyways)

Huh?

This notion of the purpose of education haunts me, because I have felt that there have been underscoring purposes to the hoops and jungles of education, it just wasn't until Graduate School that I learned that the debate of education existed.

Aren't you a TA? How can you be so hypocritical by assisting in the indoctrination of our youth? Do *YOU* indoctrinate your students??

[nbiggershaft]

So where is part 2?

[bheld]

Coming up

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Because in order to graduate, not only must one have clear writing skills, but, it is compared to ideal texts in which students then attempt to create ideal texts. "If you want a degree, you must write a certain way" most certainly is indoctrination.

A scholar, according to my '30 Oxford, is somebody who accepts instruction or serves a master.

To be a scholar is to be a student. Modern usage defines a scholar as a learned individual.

The world becomes more clear when you use non-corrupt language to describe it.

Our universities create scholars. This is not a laudable title, but accurate.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by 7960

There is a difference. Indoctrination is telling someone what to believe. In your example the person isn't told what to think in order to graduate, just how to present it. I have friends who get essays with writing that looks more like IM-speak. They actually have to circle and correct shit with LOL and b4 for "before" and "U" instead of "you." It would be indoctrination if the teacher told them *what* to think, but like you said they're not being told what to think, just how to write it. And yes, I'm sure there are some teachers who tell kids what to think and I think they're bad teachers for it. I also think they're in the minority.

Huh?

Aren't you a TA? How can you be so hypocritical by assisting in the indoctrination of our youth? Do *YOU* indoctrinate your students??

Language is reality. From the moment we are taught language, and are immersed in language, we are being indoctrinated by that language. Language is also a fluid concept, in constant shifting and changing. This isn't about the message, this is about how its presented. It's not about being told "what" to think, it's about the way we teach "HOW" to think.

To me, it breaks down like this:

I work in a Writing Center, helping mostly ESL and freshman write 5 paragraph essays, themes, what have you.

A student came in, with an essay that made little sense, that had poor grammar, lacked appropriate punctuation, and is used dull verbiage. It's a crappy essay. My job, is to show this student how "we" write essays. How "Academia" defines an appropriate essay. My job is show the language we use, the format, the whole bit.

This student came from Japan, and loved to write. In his own language, he created inspiring work, and excelled.

But, he wasn't in his country any more, and there was a new standard, new idea of how things should read, be read, and be learned.

We aren't making people intelligent, artistic or creative in our education system, we are making people like us. But, real intelligence, real brilliance can not be obtained by a piece of paper.

This is the purpose, to me. It has a goal, and the goal is for all of us to be on the same page. It almost doesn't even matter, in this country at least, what page it is we are on.

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland