Feeling kinda disheartened

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Read up on Waco, they loaded the place up with automatic guns without registrations and their neighbors reported them...the ATF had to do something, and they were right about the unregistered automatic guns

Just don't break federal law, it's not that extensive, the vast majority of law is state/local, the vast majority of corruption is state/local

Really, the excuses are just because libertarians know they couldn't get along with each other

what does Koresh have to do with this?

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by motivez

The people I know in various European countries like how it is and wouldn't trade it for what we have here (although one of my friends from Sweden recently moved to TN for school or a gf or something, I can't remember since I haven't talked to him in awhile), that includes Sweden where they pay incredibly high amounts of taxes

Where can you point to that the libertarian system is in place (or has been in the recent and modern world)?

"Knowing people" means jack shit in the grand scheme of thing... it's circumstantial.

That being said, I know a guy from Sweden, and it's not the taxes that makes him not want to attempt to move here for the rest of his life, but the fact that in the rest of the world we're seen as a country of cowboys that go around the world shooting our guns. It's a horrible stereotype that is propagated by every president in the past 60 years.

Additionally, I know a chick from Denmark who talks about how much she makes at her job there. Then I ask her how much does she pay in taxes, and it's some obscene amount. We figured out that a similar job in America would pay MORE after taxes, and it kinda floored her.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by thewise1

what does Koresh have to do with this?

You were talking about the ATF/FBI camping out your place...where else did they do to a large group like that besides Waco? (excluding people who didn't pay their taxes)

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Fed Up

The rest of your post is written under the premise that "people of our ilk," and the ones with a "radical political movement" are in the minority contemplating a "social experiment."

Meaning people who share your ideology, it's not meant as a dig. And the radical statement was with regards to how most of the country sees your ideas. Getting rid of the Department of Education is a radical idea for most Americans, it's a fact.

And yes, hundreds of thousands of people moving to a specific location to set up a local and state government more friendly to their political ideology is a social experiment, there's no two ways around it.

Originally Posted by Fed Up

Since when did adhering to the "law of the land," The U.S. Constitution become radical? It is the non-adherence that has resulted in the hidden tax called inflation via the Fed. It is the non-adherence that has our countrymen dying in undeclared wars (funded by the creation of money out of thin air). It is through our public education indoctrination system that this non-adherence goes unquestioned.

It's radical to most people who are accustomed to the way things have worked, you know that.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

"Knowing people" means jack shit in the grand scheme of thing... it's circumstantial.

That being said, I know a guy from Sweden, and it's not the taxes that makes him not want to attempt to move here for the rest of his life, but the fact that in the rest of the world we're seen as a country of cowboys that go around the world shooting our guns. It's a horrible stereotype that is propagated by every president in the past 60 years.

Additionally, I know a chick from Denmark who talks about how much she makes at her job there. Then I ask her how much does she pay in taxes, and it's some obscene amount. We figured out that a similar job in America would pay MORE after taxes, and it kinda floored her.

Sure, I've said many times it's anecdotal, but I don't know any that would give it up to come here, and I know plenty of people from Europe, more than 100 from my days of various internets activities.. I haven't had political discussions with all of them, but the ones I have like their system

So this idea that socialism is somehow evil on it's face and everyone who's ever experienced it hates it and blah blah blah just isn't true.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Meaning people who share your ideology, it's not meant as a dig. And the radical statement was with regards to how most of the country sees your ideas. Getting rid of the Department of Education is a radical idea for most Americans, it's a fact.

And yes, hundreds of thousands of people moving to a specific location to set up a local and state government more friendly to their political ideology is a social experiment, there's no two ways around it.



It's radical to most people who are accustomed to the way things have worked, you know that.

It's a radical idea because folks don't even know what the DoE does, nor are they able to think outside the box.

That said, I understand where you're coming from. It should have been packaged differently; instead of ending the DoE, it should have been billed as creating a more effective DoE that actually provides some minimalist services that could be authorized by the constitution.

The same applies to ending the IRS.

[Donkey®]

I am curious as to why this small % of people should garner the attention of the vast majority of people who want a society where we care about each other? This whole "we are right, you are wrong" attitude is what turns people off to some of the Libertarian ideals. "You had better do THIS or the country will die" isn't an effective argument either. When you have the entire globe turning towards a more socialistic society, I don't know there's much you can do about it to begin with.

As far as implementing change here in the US, I have said this before, but to get your changes implemented, it starts at the local levels. You have to start local and move up if you have any hope...which I don't think will happen. I think it's clear that "the message" Ron Paul and others tout just isn't anything people want.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Sure, I've said many times it's anecdotal, but I don't know any that would give it up to come here, and I know plenty of people from Europe, more than 100 from my days of various internets activities.. I haven't had political discussions with all of them, but the ones I have like their system

So this idea that socialism is somehow evil on it's face and everyone who's ever experienced it hates it and blah blah blah just isn't true.

People may be ok with it, but that doesn't make it right to rob from the rich and give to the poor in my book.

[motivez]

Most Americans aren't political junkies, which is part of the point I'm trying to make here. When you say "Get rid of the Department of Education" ..it's radical to them.

A "What do you mean the government wont have a Department of Education?" kind of response is typical whenever I've mentioned that idea to some people IRL..

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I am curious as to why this small % of people should garner the attention of the vast majority of people who want a society where we care about each other? This whole "we are right, you are wrong" attitude is what turns people off to some of the Libertarian ideals. "You had better do THIS or the country will die" isn't an effective argument either. When you have the entire globe turning towards a more socialistic society, I don't know there's much you can do about it to begin with.

As far as implementing change here in the US, I have said this before, but to get your changes implemented, it starts at the local levels. You have to start local and move up if you have any hope...which I don't think will happen. I think it's clear that "the message" Ron Paul and others tout just isn't anything people want.

Well, I've definitely started locally. We'll see if it grows

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

People may be ok with it, but that doesn't make it right to rob from the rich and give to the poor in my book.

That's hyperbole though because libertarians don't believe in the idea of a 'public good' or the 'public benefit' .. which, in many cases, simply isn't true IMO.. and I reject that idea on it's face, and I think so do the vast majority of Americans.

NASA for example has provided a great deal of benefit / good to the public through tax dollars decades before the private free market would have ever been interested in it.. there's dozens of other examples, but that's a pretty clear one. All the medical technology that's saved thousands of lives and improved the quality of life for thousands more wouldn't have been around for decades to do it had it not been for NASA (and taxes used for the public benefit)

There are obvious examples of waste, and IMO libertarians should focus on cleaning stuff like that up first before they go on the warpath against stuff that people like (national parks, nasa, and so forth).

Really I think that kind of rhetoric puts off a lot of Americans, much of the reason I say that people like libertarian ideas in general, but when it comes to specifics reject them.. is because of the way the ideas are framed.

[thewise1]

I think a huge key lesson learned from all this is the power of being honest with ourselves.

From the very beginning, everyone said RP had no chance. I think he did, if he hadn't been pre-destined for failure by people in general, but that's really neither here nor there. The key lesson to learn here is that time after time, even in the face of failure at caucuses and primaries, people still continue to lie to themselves and say it's possible to win, that the MSM is just blacking it out, etc. They made excuses for the failures, instead of being accountable for them and realizing that we didn't do the job right.

Those that raised these concerns at the time (myself, in some cases, though I've also been guilty of lying to myself about it) were shot down and called defeatist.

[motivez]

And yeah, like Donkey says, the libertarian idea screams "Don't care about anyone but yourself" to the majority of non political junkies who hear about it..

Since the philosophy has "greed is good" at the core of it's philosophy (because greed drives the markets), and rejects the "good intentions" people think about when it comes to government regulation, people are very put off by it.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

That's hyperbole though because libertarians don't believe in the idea of a 'public good' or the 'public benefit' .. which, in many cases, simply isn't true IMO.. and I reject that idea on it's face, and I think so do the vast majority of Americans.

NASA for example has provided a great deal of benefit / good to the public through tax dollars decades before the private free market would have ever been interested in it.. there's dozens of other examples, but that's a pretty clear one. All the medical technology that's saved thousands of lives and improved the quality of life for thousands more wouldn't have been around for decades to do it had it not been for NASA (and taxes used for the public benefit)

There are obvious examples of waste, and IMO libertarians should focus on cleaning stuff like that up first before they go on the warpath against stuff that people like (national parks, nasa, and so forth)

Really I think that kind of rhetoric puts off a lot of Americans, much of the reason I say that people like libertarian ideas in general, but when it comes to specifics reject them.. is because of the way the ideas are framed.

NASA and national parks and such are the last thing I'd complain about. But then again I'm not a Libertarian, I just have a libertarian streak.

[Fed Up]

Originally Posted by motivez

Meaning people who share your ideology, it's not meant as a dig. And the radical statement was with regards to how most of the country sees your ideas. Getting rid of the Department of Education is a radical idea for most Americans, it's a fact.

It's radical to most people who are accustomed to the way things have worked, you know that.

You said, "people who share your ideology." What specific ideology are you speaking of?

The core of Ron Paul's message is that the constitution should be followed and that the government should stay out of people's lives. Would you not agree that this is what the Founders implemented via the Constitution?

And in the next sentence you call this radical?

As far as eliminating the department of education, your example, tell me how it is Constitutional. I don't understand how your stance is that these views are radical.

Are you saying the education system in the U.S. has improved since Carter implemented it?

Are you saying that the hidden tax of inflation has been good for America since the implementation of the Federal Reserve Act?

Are you saying that sending our men and women to fight undeclared wars is good for America?

Or do you believe like George W. Bush does that the Constitution is "just a god damned piece of paper!" ???

Fed Up

[Ardentfrost]

He's saying it doesn't matter the basis, dropping the DoEd SEEMS radical to most people who have no knowledge of politics or history.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Fed Up

You said, "people who share your ideology." What specific ideology are you speaking of?

The core of Ron Paul's message is that the constitution should be followed and that the government should stay out of people's lives. Would you not agree that this is what the Founders implemented via the Constitution?

And in the next sentence you call this radical?

As far as eliminating the department of education, your example, tell me how it is Constitutional. I don't understand how your stance is that these views are radical.

Are you saying the education system in the U.S. has improved since Carter implemented it?

Are you saying that the hidden tax of inflation has been good for America since the implementation of the Federal Reserve Act?

Are you saying that sending our men and women to fight undeclared wars is good for America?

Or do you believe like George W. Bush does that the Constitution is "just a god damned piece of paper!" ???

Fed Up

The notion of basing your whole existence on a 2000 year old...I mean 200 year old document...is kind of out there to begin with. The amount of people who want to sit there and follow the Constitution LINE BY LINE is pretty much = to the amount of people who want to add things like Gay Marriage amendments to it. You're a minority. Most of us want a society that grows...not one that stays locked in a box...guided by concrete rules that are outdated and 100s of years old. The broad interpretations of the Constitution are apparently what society as a whole wants. Yes, there are times where people like Bush S-T-R-E-T-C-H what they can out of it...but most of the things you and your people complain about, like the IRS or Dept of Education, are things this society wants.

You are a fringe group of radicals who claim holiness in all things government...which turns people off to your cause. No matter what you come at people with "we are right, you are wrong" and that ALWAYS makes people run.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

He's saying it doesn't matter the basis, dropping the DoEd SEEMS radical to most people who have no knowledge of politics or history.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Sorry us little people just have no comprehension of the ways of the Jedi. We'll try to stay out of your way.


Have you guys ever thought it doesn't matter to people? Sure, Department of Education may be Unconstitutional...but have you ever thought people just don't care?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

The notion of basing your whole existence on a 2000 year old...I mean 200 year old document...is kind of out there to begin with. The amount of people who want to sit there and follow the Constitution LINE BY LINE is pretty much = to the amount of people who want to add things like Gay Marriage amendments to it. You're a minority. Most of us want a society that grows...not one that stays locked in a box...guided by concrete rules that are outdated and 100s of years old. The broad interpretations of the Constitution are apparently what society as a whole wants. Yes, there are times where people like Bush S-T-R-E-T-C-H what they can out of it...but most of the things you and your people complain about, like the IRS or Dept of Education, are things this society wants.

You are a fringe group of radicals who claim holiness in all things government...which turns people off to your cause. No matter what you come at people with "we are right, you are wrong" and that ALWAYS makes people run.

The idea that the law can be ignored when it's convenient for the majority is the sort of thinking that allows majorities of racist individuals to run roughshod over the righ