The Case for Public Education - Part 2 in the Ed. Series

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

The non-monetary benefits really aren't that great. It's not a very good job, at least not good enough to warrant such extreme supply of labor. The problem is that it's a common major for manhunters in college which cheapens the degree and creates a labor glut of teachers that will only work until they get married or get pregnant.

They don't need to manhunt in college. There is a great supply of people in this world who are willing to work for entitlements, job security and don't mind just getting by. It's only after they've been doing it for some time that they want out. But when they're younger it's a very enticing field to get involved in.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by JaJae

"Won't ever" is a strong implication. As long as the system is set up the way it is, perhaps. Again, I strongly believe the reason for it is because young students look at the work, pay, benefits and decide they want to go into the field and flood the market.

Take away the entitlements and all the extra benefits and make it like any other normal job and less people will want to go into teaching.

What entitlements and extra benefits? Why aren't these people keeping these great jobs if their so cushy?

[bheld]

Originally Posted by JaJae

They don't need to manhunt in college. There is a great supply of people in this world who are willing to work for entitlements, job security and don't mind just getting by. It's only after they've been doing it for some time that they want out. But when they're younger it's a very enticing field to get involved in.

How is that different from any other job?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

What entitlements and extra benefits? Why aren't these people keeping these great jobs if their so cushy?

Tenure, Health Benefits, Job Security, Work Hours, Summer's Off, Extremely Specific Union Contracts, belonging to the most powerful union in America etc. would be the extra benefits that they'd likely give up in the private sector for better pay.

They aren't keeping them because they grow out of their college phase of being ok with just getting by and want more.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by bheld

So you think this guy should just be handed the keys to the classroom in August and wished good luck? Forget about it. It's like any other job. You don't need a college degree to be a rocket scientist either, but I can't just go do it because I think I'd be good at it.

It's not like there's not an "orientation" (so to speak). There's something like a 3 day class you gotta take (maybe they call it "How to deal with kids with guns for dummies" or something) and I imagine they go over creating an agenda for the class. And I know that all teachers (at least in my home town) have to submit their class agendas to the pricinpal for approval.

It's one of those things that I do think I'd be good at and plan to one day do it for a year or two (like, when I'm older, right now my only goal is to make as much money as possible). I was happy when they came out with that program in GA a few years ago (the one where if you have a college degree and take some short class for a certificate, you can teach) because it will allow people like me to go out and try our hands at it. I've been doing OJT for a few years now, I imagine teaching math would be similar

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

How is that different from any other job?

How are teaching jobs different from private sector jobs? Government jobs are very different from private sector jobs for many of the reasons I've already listed in this thread. Teachers have the added bonus of their union, which is the strongest of any.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

So you think this guy should just be handed the keys to the classroom in August and wished good luck? Forget about it. It's like any other job. You don't need a college degree to be a rocket scientist either, but I can't just go do it because I think I'd be good at it.

Sure you can. I know someone who just got recruited to teach a rare subject and begin full time in her own classrooms teaching high school without even a teacher's certification. She's been assessed and is doing very well. I was an education major for about 2 years. I have to say I didn't learn anything in those two years beyond common sense... There wasn't really anything "taught" in those two years that would make me all that much better than someone else who just had passion to teach. The individual is far more important than the training.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Tenure, Health Benefits, Job Security, Work Hours, Summer's Off, Extremely Specific Union Contracts, belonging to the most powerful union in America etc. would be the entitlements and benefits.

They aren't keeping them because they grow out of their college phase of being ok with just getting by and want more.

Tenure: Non-existent for new teachers. Most states put you in a probationary licensure period.

Health Benefits: Vary greatly from district to district. It would cost an extra $500/mo for me to insure my wife. That's a little under a third of my take-home pay.

Job Security: Preliminary status for first 2 years.

Work Hours: 8-9 hours in school is no picnic, then you have to correct papers and plan.

Summers off: Not that bad.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

Tenure: Non-existent for new teachers. Most states put you in a probationary licensure period.

Health Benefits: Vary greatly from district to district. It would cost an extra $500/mo for me to insure my wife. That's a little under a third of my take-home pay.

Job Security: Preliminary status for first 2 years.

Work Hours: 8-9 hours in school is no picnic, then you have to correct papers and plan.

Summers off: Not that bad.

Of course tenure is not existent to new teachers, but you must admit it is held as a huge carrot on a stick. Tenure is huge!

Health benefits may vary from district, but by and large teachers receive amazing health benefits at very little cost compared to the private sector.

Job security: "preliminary status" for a teacher isn't saying too much. And even then that's not at all different than the private sector, but the private sector doesn't have the teacher's union. Job security for any teacher (including non-tenured) is FAR superior than practically any job in the private sector.

Hours: Most teachers do not work 8-9 hours in school. Most teachers I know in the highschools work from 7am - 3pm (at the absolute earliest to latest). They also have off every holiday, have xmas and spring breaks and summer's off. Primary educators typically have easier hours. The average teacher works far less hours in the course of a year than someone in the private sector. Of course, this depends on the individual. Some teachers put a lot of dedication into their work, but by and large teachers tend to work less hours and get home before rush hour.

These are all benefits to teaching. And even if you do not believe they are true, it certainly is believed by people when they are preparing to enter the field... hence the flooded market.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Imagine if a teacher could be fired for something short of statutory rape on the teacher's desk during Health Class.

A teacher can be fired for many things short of that.

Imagine if teacher performance actually impacted their pay and employment standing.

You mean a system that encouraged a teacher to teach to the test? Or a system where a dickhead kid with parents who had clout could get a teacher fired for failing him?

As a society we need to say enough and hold the people who raise our children .......

I taught for a lot of years but I've only raised two children, my own. If you expect teacher to raise your children then you should give them the authority to do it. But really they'd prefer you do it yourself and just let them teach.

[JaJae]

It's very difficult to fire a teacher. I'm not asking to teach to a test. There are many other ways to evaluate a teacher. There are supervisors and other staff. And just because a teacher can be held accountable doesn't mean they'd be fired every time a parent complained. That's absurd, and doesn't happen like that in the private sector. I work retail, and have customers complain all the time. Can't make everyone happy and I don't fire someone every time someone raises hell. My post was quickly edited from "raise" to "teach" as I caught it. Perhaps it was a slip. But teachers, are given a great responsibility in our society and they do it with very little oversight. There's a problem with that.

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

I know that that's what they DO, but it's pretty insulting to think that somebody can just out of the blue decide they don't like being an accountant and think they can just become a teacher. It's like me expecting to walk into a hospital and start working as a nurse because I've taken care of my sick kid before.

The point is, if anybody can do it then let's stop pretending like it even requires a college degree and we can just turn it into a regular blue-collar job like daycare. If Joe Schmoe can try it out for a while it just cheapens the job.

I know more than one teacher who came out of the private sector to go into teaching. They "tried it out" as you're saying and some hated it and lasted the year while some loved it and kept going to get their certification.

The idea that they're "trying it out" is a little off. They had to go through an interview, they had to demonstrate some ability/desire, they had to have a degree, and the district had to have a shortage.

So, putting all that together, when there aren't enough teachers then business people can be hired as teachers on a temporary basis (with the option to go full-time if they get certified). How is their one year trial any different than a new teacher coming out of college? They're both going to suck or bring their strengths to the job while they figure out how to do it.

Having a person come from the business world to teach doesn't cheapen the job, especially considering they're going to have to get certified just like you did.

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

So you think this guy should just be handed the keys to the classroom in August and wished good luck?

That's basically how it is for new teachers. Sure they had training to help manage a class, but a business person's experience can be just as helpful. It could also mean he'd suck. But then so might a new teacher.

so business person v brand new teacher........with guidance I'm not sure if one is necessarily better than the other.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Health benefits may vary from district, but by and large teachers receive amazing health benefits at very little cost compared to the private sector.

this is completely false

Teacher health benefits vary just like in the private sector. My health benefit contribution went down and my benefits went up when I quit teaching and went corporate.

Job security: "preliminary status" for a teacher isn't saying too much. And even then that's not at all different than the private sector, but the private sector doesn't have the teacher's union. Job security for any teacher (including non-tenured) is FAR superior than practically any job in the private sector.

Not FAR superior. It's a govt job so it's a bit more difficult to fire someone but it's not FAR harder.

Hours: Most teachers do not work 8-9 hours in school.

Not working those hours in school is right, but getting home before rush hour doesn't mean they're not doing work at home. 120+ kids, spend 2 min (that's a low estimate) correcting quiz/test/homework for half of them you're looking at another 2 hours/day. I might have gotten home by 4pm but I didn't stop working at 4pm.I got to school at 6:30 to start teaching at 7:26. Last bell was 2:26 and I usually stayed until 3:30 to wrap up/prepare. Then I'd go home and put in a few more hours.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by bheld

The non-monetary benefits really aren't that great. It's not a very good job, at least not good enough to warrant such extreme supply of labor. The problem is that it's a common major for manhunters in college which cheapens the degree and creates a labor glut of teachers that will only work until they get married or get pregnant.

I dunno. They have great medical benefits, they get 2 months off in the summer, they have more holidays than most people do, and most schools have pension plans, meaning your retirement is basically taken care of. The medical benefits alone are worth alot. the Co-pays where I work at our company plan are like 20 bucks. My wifes plan, they are 5 dollars.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by bheld

Tenure: Non-existent for new teachers. Most states put you in a probationary licensure period.

Health Benefits: Vary greatly from district to district. It would cost an extra $500/mo for me to insure my wife. That's a little under a third of my take-home pay.

Job Security: Preliminary status for first 2 years.

Work Hours: 8-9 hours in school is no picnic, then you have to correct papers and plan.

Summers off: Not that bad.

Damn where do you work? My wife works in a small one school district. Her plan covers her, me and my daughter and she pays like 50 dollars per paycheck, so 100 per month. Even my plan at work in the private sector would cost us about 300 dollars a month ( pre tax) to cover my whole family.
You guys should go on strike.

[Ardentfrost]

I'm forced to participate in the teacher's retirement plan in GA because I work for a state school (even though I do not teach) and it is fucking awesome if you get vested (takes 10 years) and it carries to any public school in the state of GA. I put in 5% and as long as I stay for 10 years, they match me.

Of course, I plan on quitting my job before I get the 10 years, so I feel it's a waste for me to be in it, but if I were, it's a great retirement plan.

Additionally I get the same access to benefits as all public teacher do in the state of GA. My benefits are better than most of my friends who work private. I can choose to have shittier benefits, but I don't.

And the teacher's yearly pay may seen not too good, except when you factor in the 2 months they get off that a few that I know work other jobs (or teach) during those months and increase their pay. Pay will, of course, vary from state to state and I know GA has a comparatively decent pay, but if you take their pay and divide it by 10 instead of 12, it's not horrible (in GA).

One of the guys I work with was a teacher for a few years. He lived in CA and said the pay was FAR worse than in GA (like, $15k worse). The GA pay was still less than he's making now. But even then, the $10k more he gets now spread over 12 months compared to 10 isn't huge.

And GA is one of the worst states overall in education (we have a few decent schools, but overall we're like 48th in the nation). It's not JUSt pay and benefits that will attract the good teachers. There has to be a legitimate demand for them. Every teacher being on the same pay scale regardless of performance, the difficulty in termination based on poor performance, etc... those things are also factors in increasing the effectiveness of education.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by 7960

I know more than one teacher who came out of the private sector to go into teaching. They "tried it out" as you're saying and some hated it and lasted the year while some loved it and kept going to get their certification.

The idea that they're "trying it out" is a little off. They had to go through an interview, they had to demonstrate some ability/desire, they had to have a degree, and the district had to have a shortage.

So, putting all that together, when there aren't enough teachers then business people can be hired as teachers on a temporary basis (with the option to go full-time if they get certified). How is their one year trial any different than a new teacher coming out of college? They're both going to suck or bring their strengths to the job while they figure out how to do it.

Having a person come from the business world to teach doesn't cheapen the job, especially considering they're going to have to get certified just like you did.

I'm just railing against the "anybody can do it" mindset.