The Case for Public Education - Part 2 in the Ed. Series

[bheld]

In the first thread most of us agreed that society has a big role to play in the education of our children. We agree for the most part that children should not be punished for having idiots as parents and I think we can all agree that there is a need for at least some minimal level of education among every citizen in this country.

Going forward, since these are widely-held beliefs we have to take it as the foundation for the rest of the debate. An individual may personally disagree with these premises but that doesn't change the fact that in order to proceed in this discussion we need to operate under the previously specified parameters.

Therefore, if you still want to talk about how children should be responsible for their own education or how private charity should pick up the slack, go to the first thread:

http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/...-part-1-a.html

All discussions in this thread will be operating under the common assumption that there is a collective need to educate children. This means that if you disagree you're going to have to suck it up and now operate within the framework that you might have argued against before, if only because a majority of people have chosen to go in a different direction.

I'm going to share my first thoughts for this topic in a following post.

[bheld]

I'm going to immediately frame the debate in terms of public vs. private operation and we can go from there. Let's try to stay on topic at least for a little while. If the discussion goes in a different direction that might be motivation for a separate thread.

To start, I'm going to pick off the easiest target I can see right now and try to remove it from the debate as quickly as possible. That target is for-profit private education.

To me, for-profit schools are a big threat to positive educational outcomes for kids. For one thing, you're taking a publicly financed system (the public schools system we currently have) and in a transition to for-profit education immediately skimming about 20% of that budget off the top for profit. That leaves school budgets automatically leaner just through the transition to a new operator.

Throwing a competitive environment into the situation, you have the potential for all sorts of operators to differentiate and market their product based not on educational benefits for students but matters of convenience (and possibly even finance) for parents. For one, it's only natural for a for-profit school to start cutting expenditures into actual educational expenses in order to keep kids at school longer to better accommodate the work schedules of parents. You also have the potential for kickbacks to parents, shady marketing deals that make pop machines in the lunchroom look like Holy Communion, and a score of other schemes that aren't a problem in the public school system.

I have yet to hear a comprehensive argument for how for-profit private schools are actually going to provide a better product at reduced cost that actually addresses all of the concerns I outlined above.

[Thorgrim]

As an example of for-profit school failures, see Arizona and schools that basically kicked out kids with any physical disability and a sharp mind because they were simply too expensive to teach

Simply put, schools for the masses can not be profitable, and the masses want to send their kids to schools

[bheld]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

As an example of for-profit school failures, see Arizona and schools that basically kicked out kids with any physical disability and a sharp mind because they were simply too expensive to teach

As usual, the non-public schools can skim off whatever populations they want. In this model public schools become holding pens for the most problematic students. Self-selection alone ensures the student body at a non-traditional school will have involved parents that care enough about academic success to take the time to investigate new options in schools.

[Thorgrim]

Also, they lead to de facto segregation, as people are like to send their kids to a school full of people exactly like them, you'd have the black baptist school, the white anglican school, the hispanic catholic school, etc

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

In this model public schools become holding pens for the most problematic students.

I need to call my dad...he said there's a town in maine that told the family of a handicapped student if they moved there they were going to have to pay for the extras associated with his education (or not move there).

I wish I could remember which town, but the town only had 50 or so kids and this handicapped student was going to increase their operating budget by some ridiculous amount. The family still moved there but they have to bus/drive their kid like 60 miles one-way to a larger district with the facilities to handle this kid's disability.

At first I was like but then the more I thought about it the more sense it made. This family was going to ask "the town" (meaning "everyone else") to hire a nurse and at least two extra aides and all the other shit that goes along with putting a severely handicapped kid in public school. It's not fair.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic a bit.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by 7960

I need to call my dad...he said there's a town in maine that told the family of a handicapped student if they moved there they were going to have to pay for the extras associated with his education (or not move there).

I wish I could remember which town, but the town only had 50 or so kids and this handicapped student was going to increase their operating budget by some ridiculous amount. The family still moved there but they have to bus/drive their kid like 60 miles one-way to a larger district with the facilities to handle this kid's disability.

At first I was like but then the more I thought about it the more sense it made. This family was going to ask "the town" (meaning "everyone else") to hire a nurse and at least two extra aides and all the other shit that goes along with putting a severely handicapped kid in public school. It's not fair.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic a bit.

Wow. I actually think that might be illegal under IDEA. It's a shit situation to be sure though. Rural areas really get the shaft when it comes to legislation like that. Unfortunately tough choices need to be made to balance out educational services to disabled students and unmanageable cost burdens to local districts, and the federal government conveniently removes itself from that debate.

[Thorgrim]

Basically it's saying if your poor, and have enough money for a healthy child, you must abort your planned baby if the doctor tells you he might be handicapped, because the community won't help you

that's fucking cruel and immoral on every conservative and liberal's compass...libertarians...i know several who'd say 'fuck it, i want low taxes'

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

Wow. I actually think that might be illegal under IDEA. It's a shit situation to be sure though. Rural areas really get the shaft when it comes to legislation like that. Unfortunately tough choices need to be made to balance out educational services to disabled students and unmanageable cost burdens to local districts, and the federal government conveniently removes itself from that debate.

I'm going to guess that the town giving them the option of busing the kid to a larger district is what saved them. But either way, when a school's operating budget is $300k and a kid moves to town that's going to require $75k/year, how can the school/town absorb that?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Basically it's saying if your poor, and have enough money for a healthy child, you must abort your planned baby if the doctor tells you he might be handicapped, because the community won't help you

that's fucking cruel and immoral on every conservative and liberal's compass...libertarians...i know several who'd say 'fuck it, i want low taxes'

you really have a hard on for libertarians, don't you

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Basically it's saying if your poor, and have enough money for a healthy child, you must abort your planned baby if the doctor tells you he might be handicapped, because the community won't help you

that's fucking cruel and immoral on every conservative and liberal's compass...libertarians...i know several who'd say 'fuck it, i want low taxes'

My take on it is that you can't measure all things in terms of economic profit making. I don't care if schools are a negative equity game. I don't care if they never make money. Is educating a handicapped person beneficial to society in economic terms? Probably not. But that's not what it's about. Shit if people made every decision on purely economic terms we would all be driving Honda Fits around. No one would ever drive a nice expensive car because it's financially foolish. But people do it anyway. Why? Because they think it will make them happier.
If all decisions were made on financial terms we would decide whether or not to seek medical treatment based on how much we will earn if we stay alive and how much the treatment costs. If the treatment costs more then how much I will earn if I stay alive, then I dont get the treatment and I die. That's obviously just crazy. My point is that if you only look at the economics of an issue you are probably missing something else equally important.

[Ardentfrost]

How is it that not for profit private schools don't have to charge more for kids who will cost more to teach? for profit schools would have some buffer over margin whereas not for profit wouldn't.

Additionally, for-profit education systems are forced to evaluate how effective and efficient they are being in outputting their product all the time, whereas schools that can garner public support in some fashion don't because there are fewer people to really answer to. And those that are supposed to be watching out are part of a larger bureaucracy making it more difficult to change anyway.

I see this a lot where I work because even though GaTech is publicly funded, each college operates (at least somewhat) privately. The difference is seen in the group I work for where no one can be fired (barring they don't come to work drunk or assault someone) compared to any college which can fire nearly any employee for barely a reason at all.

The firing and hiring process is just one method to maintain effectiveness. My area is less effective overall because of dead weight we cannot get rid of.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

My take on it is that you can't measure all things in terms of economic profit making. I don't care if schools are a negative equity game. I don't care if they never make money. Is educating a handicapped person beneficial to society in economic terms? Probably not. But that's not what it's about. Shit if people made every decision on purely economic terms we would all be driving Honda Fits around. No one would ever drive a nice expensive car because it's financially foolish. But people do it anyway. Why? Because they think it will make them happier.
If all decisions were made on financial terms we would decide whether or not to seek medical treatment based on how much we will earn if we stay alive and how much the treatment costs. If the treatment costs more then how much I will earn if I stay alive, then I dont get the treatment and I die. That's obviously just crazy. My point is that if you only look at the economics of an issue you are probably missing something else equally important.

Imagine if a teacher could be fired for something short of statutory rape on the teacher's desk during Health Class. Imagine if teacher performance actually impacted their pay and employment standing. The list can go on. Ultimately there needs to be accountability and economic factors need to be taken into consideration if our education system is ever going to improve.

Most people wouldn't say you should only look at economic factors when it comes to educating our children, but they need to be addressed. A viable solution is likely found somewhere in the middle. The problem is right now these issues aren't being addressed and beyond that somehow we're still managing to move further to the one side.

As a society we need to say enough and hold the people who raise our children accountable for their performance and use of our tax dollars. We currently don't and the system is set up in such a way to prevent us from doing so.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Imagine if a teacher could be fired for something short of statutory rape on the teacher's desk during Health Class. Imagine if teacher performance actually impacted their pay and employment standing. The list can go on. Ultimately there needs to be accountability and economic factors need to be taken into consideration if our education system is ever going to improve.

Most people wouldn't say you should only look at economic factors when it comes to educating our children, but they need to be addressed. A viable solution is likely found somewhere in the middle. The problem is right now these issues aren't being addressed and beyond that somehow we're still managing to move further to the one side.

As a society we need to say enough and hold the people who raise our children accountable for their performance and use of our tax dollars. We currently don't and the system is set up in such a way to prevent us from doing so.

Well, as far as public education is concerned, I think that's why the (unrealistic) goal is to make a cookie cutter program that any monkey of a teacher could follow, thereby cutting out the need for a teacher to be good (or the risk of one being bad).

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Well, as far as public education is concerned, I think that's why the (unrealistic) goal is to make a cookie cutter program that any monkey of a teacher could follow, thereby cutting out the need for a teacher to be good (or the risk of one being bad).

The program is one thing, but the teacher is something entirely different. You can have the best program in the world, if the teacher is shitty it will have a great impact. The teacher is far more important than the program.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Imagine if a teacher could be fired for something short of statutory rape on the teacher's desk during Health Class. Imagine if teacher performance actually impacted their pay and employment standing. The list can go on. Ultimately there needs to be accountability and economic factors need to be taken into consideration if our education system is ever going to improve.

Most people wouldn't say you should only look at economic factors when it comes to educating our children, but they need to be addressed. A viable solution is likely found somewhere in the middle. The problem is right now these issues aren't being addressed and beyond that somehow we're still managing to move further to the one side.

As a society we need to say enough and hold the people who raise our children accountable for their performance and use of our tax dollars. We currently don't and the system is set up in such a way to prevent us from doing so.

I agree with alot of that, and economics does certainly play a role in the whole thing. it's just not the ONLY role.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The program is one thing, but the teacher is something entirely different. You can have the best program in the world, if the teacher is shitty it will have a great impact. The teacher is far more important than the program.

yeah thats one of the thigns that bothers me about the teaching profession. My wife is a great teacher. She has her masters degree, she was named teacher of the year at her school, she is on the curiculum comittee, and she helps demonstrate methods to other teachers. She always gets the hardest kids and she always manages to turn them around...and what does she get for it? The same salary as the fat old teacher who doesn't give two shits and teaches from behind her desk. That's no way to run anything.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Imagine if a teacher could be fired for something short of statutory rape on the teacher's desk during Health Class. Imagine if teacher performance actually impacted their pay and employment standing. The list can go on. Ultimately there needs to be accountability and economic factors need to be taken into consideration if our education system is ever going to improve.

Most people wouldn't say you should only look at economic factors when it comes to educating our children, but they need to be addressed. A viable solution is likely found somewhere in the middle. The problem is right now these issues aren't being addressed and beyond that somehow we're still managing to move further to the one side.

As a society we need to say enough and hold the people who raise our children accountable for their performance and use of our tax dollars. We currently don't and the system is set up in such a way to prevent us from doing so.

Hold them accountable how? It's already a struggle to attract and keep teachers with the system we currently have. Now you want to hassle the few people that actually want the job? You don't get prime rib on a Burger King budget. If you keep trying to squeeze blood from a rock eventually you won't have any teachers left.