ethical question

[bheld]

Sorry for all the education topics lately, but this one is different from all the other ones. This has to do with an educational approach that I'm investigating on my own that probably isn't ethical, but I wanted to get your opinions on it because I think it's sort of interesting.

Let me start by saying I'm pretty disappointed with my kids. I didn't grow up in a rural area so maybe it's just different out here in the wilderness or maybe times really have changed but kids here are performing below expectations, to put it politely. My "top" students wouldn't have gotten a second look in my old junior high. Again, I don't know if this is reflective of recent downward developments nationally or if it's just the local culture telling kids that school isn't important but sometimes it makes me want to just throw in the towel because it doesn't take a genius to do the few things I'm actually able to accomplish.

I really try to push critical thinking skills but I get no traction because the students really only see school as either something to put up with until they're old enough to drop out or a superficial supplier of affirmation via high grades. By the time they reach me in 7th grade I feel like they've already been wasted since they're used to behaving like little robots. I get confused looks when I actually expect them to understand something or think about a problem in ways that doesn't involve punching numbers into a calculator and spitting back a number. Most of the "successful" ones still only see school as a way to get good jobs and make money.

Creativity is zero. Most of my students couldn't see the connection between advertising on TV and programming. They can't analyze. I think it has something to do with how they grew up with video games, interactive toys, and lots of other stuff that provided a pre-determined narrative and kept them from learning how to create and think spatially. Modern advertising has turned the future into a place where kids are self-actualized to a place where they're making tons of cash and have lots of stuff.

Don't worry, I'm getting to a point here. Now, there has been a lot of condemnation of advertisers and the way they market to children. The APA has started to address the ethics of using psychological tactics on kids and I think there's no doubt that advertising is very effective on children. It plays a large part in why kids today are the way they are, in that it replaces traditional values with consumer values.

My question is, how ethical is it to investigate these psychological tactics and utilize them to further the educational goals for the students? That is, would it be right to take a page from the marketers and use the same means to achieve different ends? Can I in good conscience knowingly create the artificial mindset needed to push a particular product (in my case an education) that advertisers have created in kids for decades?

In short, you could say I'm talking about brainwashing if that's what you'd call modern marketing. I guess it's fighting fire with fire.

I don't even know if it's possible but I'm intrigued.

[bheld]

Basically I'm looking to create demand for education instead of Mariposa Barbie, but using similar tactics.

[JaJae]

I think the educational system in our nation has gotten worse over the years. We can all point blame at different things that cause it, but I think most of us would agree that schools aren't the same as they used to be. Calculators are rampant, cell phones and other distractions are introduced and there seems to be less accountability for the lack of progress of students (mostly on the student end). We're so quick to blame the parents, teacher, the test, social factors, etc. All it does is give students every excuse in the world as to why it is ok for them fail.

I'm too young to have witnessed, but when my parents were in school and they screwed up they got hit with a ruler. Before that they got the dunce cap and were put in the corner. These measures have been replaced with such things as writing a child's name on the board. Now I'm not saying we should go back to the olden days, but I think there was a viable solution somewhere in the middle.

Kid's today have a lot more distractions than they used to have. Maybe I was oblivious to it. I've been out of high school for almost a decade now and I've been in the retail industry where a huge portion of my employees have been highschool/college students. I didn't attend the local school district where I work, but I notice the kids by and large are not as intelligent. It is a very affluent area and the school has received a "Blue Ribbon School of Excellence." Money is never a problem and the kids have every modern educational tool available to them. There are a couple regional schools for the county which happens to be one of the top ten wealthiest counties in America. Yet, well more than half my high school kids can't even make change of $7.42 on a ten dollar bill. They have to use the register as a calculator. I had one kid who I sent on break for a half hour at 8:49 and they looked to the clock and then asked me what time would it be for them to come back.

My best friend's family moved to Florida just before their youngest son went to the middle school we had attended for "safety" reasons. They were planning on leaving regardless, but pushed it up to prevent him from going to same school we went to. He went to Florida and they pushed him up a grade. He actually tested two grade levels ahead, but they didn't want him to be young so he only moved up once. They gave him a state test and classified him as a Prodigy. He's got a certificate and everything. The joke of it all is, in NJ he was a problematic C student with ADHD. In Florida, he's Doogie Howser.

Something is clearly going wrong in our educational system in America. Something needs to be done to fix it. The reality is the schools in my opinion already "brainwash" our students in many ways. I don't think it is necessarily intentional, but it happens by default and by design of the system.

Slightly off topic, but schools are typically designed very similarly to prisons. They have classrooms (cells), gyms, cafeterias, offices, etc and it's all laid out to be secure and enforce traffic flow. When students get to school they are taught many of life's lessons we come to understand in our society, waiting on line, waiting to speak, etc.

I think given the idea that most people would agree education in America needs improvement I think it's only logical to start discussing different methodologies. I think "brainwashing" as you have said is a viable option if done properly. I think the term is a bit harsh, but I think schools already "brainwash" students to a certain extent. I don't see a problem with shifting that focus to something more productive on the education of the students.

[bheld]

I agree with a lot of what you said but I think that schools are more of a reflection of modern society than the cause. You touch on a lot of issues that need to be addressed by our public school system and that's direction I wanted to go in my series of education posts after we hammer out the voucher issue.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by bheld

I agree with a lot of what you said but I think that schools are more of a reflection of modern society than the cause. You touch on a lot of issues that need to be addressed by our public school system and that's direction I wanted to go in my series of education posts after we hammer out the voucher issue.

I actually agree with this. But I also think schools play a part in teaching students things they take outside the school. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear on that. Society greatly impacts the schools. If a teacher touches a student today, let alone hit them with a wooden object, they'd be sued and fired. This isn't a change the school has made without outside factors. Even the curriculum is dictated and influenced by society. This can be found in the abstinence and creationism debates.

[Phantom]

I would think it depends on what you do to "brainwash" the kids.

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

Basically I'm looking to create demand for education instead of Mariposa Barbie, but using similar tactics.

It depends on how you do it, but overall I'd say as long as you're not teaching them math by making them pimps, or teaching them about slavery by selling them, or teaching them statistics by playing craps, you're good.

BTW, I got in trouble for teaching prob and stats through gambling. The school had a policy against gambling and apparently that applied even to classroom lessons. I didn't think using chips and cards would violate the gambling policy, but it did. Oh well, I got the lesson through another way.

Funny, the kid that was most interested in the lessons was also the one that (I found out later) had a vicious online gambling habit...oops, my bad!

[Ardentfrost]

It's funny, some of your criticisms I had already thought about with my future children. Particularly, all the toys that need batteries. What kind of creativity is promoted by pushing a button and the thing playing a song? It reduces the need for an imagination.

I have similar views on the food we feed our children, the TV they watch, the methods in which we teach them (or not) the value of a dollar, etc...

My kids are really going to know what it will be like to do without and the need to be creative... that is, if my wife doesn't ruin it for me

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

It's funny, some of your criticisms I had already thought about with my future children. Particularly, all the toys that need batteries. What kind of creativity is promoted by pushing a button and the thing playing a song? It reduces the need for an imagination.

I have similar views on the food we feed our children, the TV they watch, the methods in which we teach them (or not) the value of a dollar, etc...

My kids are really going to know what it will be like to do without and the need to be creative... that is, if my wife doesn't ruin it for me

You say that now but wait.........you'll have a DVD player in your mini-van and your kids will have battery toys and at some point in their youth they will eat cake for breakfast.

Last year I was fucking beat...so around comes dinner and I thought "fuck it, scrambled eggs and pancakes and bacon" and the kids were screaming "YEAH!!!!"

Halfway through cooking I called my mom and said "when you made me breakfast for dinner you weren't giving me something special, you were you tired!" and she laughed and laughed and eventually just hung up on me.

[Ardentfrost]

haha, I'm not against serving pancakes, eggs, and whatnot for dinner. Hell, I like that

But I hope I can stick to my guns on the other stuff. I also hope to keep the toys and TV and whatnot out of the kids' bedrooms and into a more centralized area for playing. I want this for multiple reasons, but one is certainly so when being sent to their room, it's actual punishment. Another is so they have an area free from distraction for studies, sleeping, and relaxing. Computers only in communal areas that are fully visible to everyone else.

That kind of shit. I think about this stuff all the time

[nbiggershaft]

It's hardly hard evidence of anything. But something insightful my dad said after retiring from 25+ years of teaching math, "Just about everything has changed in education except for one thing, the students".

I think we all get a little caught up in the myth of the good old days. It's only natural. In reality I know literacy over the last 50 years or so has increased, I would bet the same for math and science skills. You have students in high school now who are participating in robotics competitions, graduating 12 grade with BA's. Taking advanced physics and calculus. I doubt you'd have seen any of that 20 years ago.

What I am guessing you are experiencing is two things. One, a natural bitterness that comes with being a teacher, and the facts that most kids don't want to learn. And two, rural communities often place a low value on and have little resources for education. My sister taught consecutive years at a rural then a suburban school. Believe me, she talked about the difference.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

But I hope I can stick to my guns on the other stuff. I also hope to keep the toys and TV and whatnot out of the kids' bedrooms and into a more centralized area for playing. I want this for multiple reasons, but one is certainly so when being sent to their room, it's actual punishment. Another is so they have an area free from distraction for studies, sleeping, and relaxing. Computers only in communal areas that are fully visible to everyone else.

My kids have toys but no tv/pc in their room, and won't. My wife wanted me to run a cable to their room when we were doing construction but I wouldn't for exactly the reason you're talking about.

They do have toys and book and games and stuff, though. I'd never send them to their room as punishment. If you want them to think of it as a relaxing place how can you turn around and use it to punish them?


bheld, I think we need an example or we're going to keep getting off track. You said you've thought about this so you must have at least one idea.

[WickedLou9]

unfortunately I think alot of those negative traits that those 7th graders have were acquired long before they got to you. If you don't have a kid interested in learning by 2nd or third grade, it's going to be a challenge to turn them around. i'm not sure what the answer is.

As for using advertising tactics to get your kids interested in learning? I don't see why that would be an ethical dilema.As a teacher, you have to do whatever it takes to reach those kids. it's not like you are doing something for your own personal gain.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

It's hardly hard evidence of anything. But something insightful my dad said after retiring from 25+ years of teaching math, "Just about everything has changed in education except for one thing, the students".

I think we all get a little caught up in the myth of the good old days. It's only natural. In reality I know literacy over the last 50 years or so has increased, I would bet the same for math and science skills. You have students in high school now who are participating in robotics competitions, graduating 12 grade with BA's. Taking advanced physics and calculus. I doubt you'd have seen any of that 20 years ago.

What I am guessing you are experiencing is two things. One, a natural bitterness that comes with being a teacher, and the facts that most kids don't want to learn. And two, rural communities often place a low value on and have little resources for education. My sister taught consecutive years at a rural then a suburban school. Believe me, she talked about the difference.

Good post. You're so right about the natural bitterness part.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by 7960

My kids have toys but no tv/pc in their room, and won't. My wife wanted me to run a cable to their room when we were doing construction but I wouldn't for exactly the reason you're talking about.

They do have toys and book and games and stuff, though. I'd never send them to their room as punishment. If you want them to think of it as a relaxing place how can you turn around and use it to punish them?


bheld, I think we need an example or we're going to keep getting off track. You said you've thought about this so you must have at least one idea.

Uh, example I guess would be playing off of insecurities or appealing to base fears or desires. The equivalent of invoking "terrists" but in school instead of the political arena.

I don't know if I can get more specific because I haven't really looked at in-depth strategies.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by 7960

My kids have toys but no tv/pc in their room, and won't. My wife wanted me to run a cable to their room when we were doing construction but I wouldn't for exactly the reason you're talking about.

They do have toys and book and games and stuff, though. I'd never send them to their room as punishment. If you want them to think of it as a relaxing place how can you turn around and use it to punish them?

That's a good point.

[7960]

Originally Posted by bheld

Uh, example I guess would be playing off of insecurities or appealing to base fears or desires. The equivalent of invoking "terrists" but in school instead of the political arena.

I don't know if I can get more specific because I haven't really looked at in-depth strategies.

if it comes across as a threat it definitely will not work, and in fact it could go the other way and make them almost try to fail.

A reward system is (IMO) the best way...not candy or shit like that, but other stuff. Figure out what they value. I had one class with 3 or 4 kids who would do anything for extra credit, almost like a manic/obsessive thing. I used them to motive/cajole/entice/embarrass the rest of them into doing it. But the rules were they had to finish their work first, then they'd get extra credit.

I also used their peers to apply peer pressure. I taught a 94 minute class.......94 minutes of math is painful. So as a reward I started "stupid lawsuit friday." Kids would read the paper during the week and bring in stupid lawsuits. Thursday I'd copy them and send them home and friday we'd stop class early and talk about them, a kind of socratic roundtable kind of thing. But the catch was we'd only do it if all the kids did their work. It was funny to see some kids going around the room checking to make sure other kids finished their work. I broke the class into groups and had one kid teach 2 others, I designed experiments that required them to go outside but they could only go if they'd completed their work........there are a ton of ways to "bride" (persuade/entice) them but you have to figure out what drives them.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

That's a good point.

we have "the stair"

the bottom landing of the stairs, so they're right in the middle of the house and can see everybody but can't be involved in any of it......they HATE it because they can see everyone who's not punished but they can't interact with them, they can't see the tv but can hear it. Being sent to the stair...my son asked if I'd spank him instead and he's never been spanked in his life.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by bheld

Basically I'm looking to create demand for education instead of Mariposa Barbie, but using similar tactics.

To suggest Kids do not understand the value of education is an understatement!

And you cannot sell education on the promise of economic value or even social value. That may seem perfectly logical to adults, but you are way ahead of a childs outlook. You really need to get them interested in learning and understanding as a reward in itself. The benefits come later in life. For example most of my own science education was self taught. By the time I took a college Astronomy class I was an "A" student because I already knew the course study.

Don't just teach rote math and insist it will be important later in life. Show them how it relates to engineering and physics. Areas of importance where they already have some understanding.

Kids also need to enjoy reading! I don't care much what it is. That will change in time. I am sure the battle is harder these days with so much interactive technology, but it is so necessary! Perhaps I am lucky to have grown up in a time when TV/Radio was limited and when you were not active in your own local world your read books to go into a larger one.

I guess I am trying to say you must inspire kids because boredom is a bigger problem than not being so bright!