Berkeley v Marines

Donkey® · 02-12-2008, 04:57 PM

Showdown looms in 'treasonous' Berkeley - CNN.com

Originally Posted by article

Showdown looms in 'treasonous' Berkeley

By Wayne Drash
CNN

(CNN) -- Military supporters descended on Berkeley early Tuesday, demanding the famously liberal California college town rescind its vote that says Marine recruiters are "not welcome in this city."

The pro-military demonstrators were met by anti-war protesters who had camped out overnight, setting the stage for a dramatic showdown late in the day when the City Council is to discuss whether to revoke its previous vote.

"Their treasonous action, especially at this time of war right now, is not acceptable," said Mary Pearson, a spokeswoman for the group Move America Forward.

"It's very, very important for everyone to stand united ... to give our Marines and all of our military the greatest respect and honor that they deserve."

Before the sun was even up, about 300 demonstrators -- both pro-military and anti-war -- were already standing toe-to-toe in downtown. Many traded jeers and sneers.

"Code Pink doesn't stand for us," one sign said, held by a man in military fatigues. Signs held by anti-war activists read, "End the War" and "Bring the troops home now."

The City Council is to meet at 7 p.m. PT on whether to take back its previous measure urging the Marine recruiters to leave town.

"If recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders," the measure says.

It went on to say the council applauds residents and organizations that "volunteer to impede, passively or actively, by nonviolent means, the work of any military recruiting office located in the City of Berkeley."

Ever since the council measure, protesters with the anti-war group Code Pink have camped outside the Marine recruiting office on Shattuck Avenue, singing peace songs and chanting slogans for an end to the Iraq war. Photo See photos of Code Pink protesters outside Marine office »

Republican lawmakers in Washington fired back last week, threatening to recall more than $2 million of federal funding to the city as well as money designated for the University of California-Berkeley, the campus that became a bastion of liberalism during the Vietnam War.

The Marine Corps has said it has no plans to move its office, which is located about a block from the college campus.

Whether the City Council reverses course remains to be seen.

Max Anderson, a Vietnam war veteran who serves on the council, said he fully supports the measure to get Marine recruiters out of town -- despite receiving more than 8,000 e-mails, most of them harsh in tone, on the matter.

"If the aim was to shut us down, get us to back up, get us to eat our words, get us to retreat from our position with the war, they can forget that," he told CNN Monday.

He said he was recruited by Marines after he graduated from high school in 1963 and was promised that he and his friends would serve together. But once they enlisted, he said, they were separated and shipped off to Vietnam.

"We're not against the Marines per se," he said. "We're against this war. We're against the mechanisms that support this war and send our young people over there."

Kriss Worthington, a progressive Berkeley activist and council member for 11 years, believes the council overreached.

"The inflammatory language in the City Council item is really outrageous -- not just to right-wing people, but to mainstream liberal people and even to some peace activists who have said they're insulted that the city would have such language," Worthington said.

He said Berkeley owes an apology to the military and to the peace movement "for having such embarrassing language allegedly trying to promote peace."

"When you make a colossal blunder, you can't just sort of ignore the mistake and go about your way. You have to do something to fix it," Worthington said. E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

If it's legal, I really don't have an issue with what they did.

thewise1 · 02-12-2008, 05:04 PM

I don't understand why pro-military people get all prissy about this sort of thing.

Do they really want recruits from Berkeley anyway? I thought the military had a no-gay policy.

bheld · 02-12-2008, 05:10 PM

The resolution is cringe-worthy but I empathize with the anger some communities have at the tactics undertaken by military recruiters to spirit away their youth.

This is a horribly unpopular war, and in times of peace it wasn't as big of a deal if the military preyed on youthful desires for travel, adventure, and danger. But now we are shipping kids off to die in the middle of nowhere and for no particular purpose aside from killing more people. Many recruiters today are no better than the used car salesmen of old, willing to resort to the lowest levels to hit their quotas.

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

The resolution is cringe-worthy but I empathize with the anger some communities have at the tactics undertaken by military recruiters to spirit away their youth.

This is a horribly unpopular war, and in times of peace it wasn't as big of a deal if the military preyed on youthful desires for travel, adventure, and danger. But now we are shipping kids off to die in the middle of nowhere and for no particular purpose aside from killing more people. Many recruiters today are no better than the used car salesmen of old, willing to resort to the lowest levels to hit their quotas.

the Marine Corps does not accept kids, you can sign up at 17 only if you have finished high school and your parents sign off on it

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

I don't understand why pro-military people get all prissy about this sort of thing.

it is very insulting and we shouldn't have to put with it.

thewise1 · 02-12-2008, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

it is very insulting and we shouldn't have to put with it.

Oh, so you're entitled to not be insulted?

I don't think so, chief

JaJae · 02-12-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Oh, so you're entitled to not be insulted?

I don't think so, chief

That's not what he said. But the same way in which they protest the military, why can't people protest their actions? It's a two way street.

thewise1 · 02-12-2008, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

That's not what he said. But the same way in which they protest the military, why can't people protest their actions? It's a two way street.

He's welcome to. I just don't understand why he would want to recruit from there.

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Oh, so you're entitled to not be insulted?

I don't think so, chief

and they aren't entitled to federal funds.

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

He's welcome to. I just don't understand why he would want to recruit from there.

NROTC UC Berkeley

it is a very large diverse university, I am sure they are people that are interested in the Marine Corps. If the Marine Corps didn't get anyone to sign up then they wouldn't have a recruiter station there.

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

That's not what he said. But the same way in which they protest the military, why can't people protest their actions? It's a two way street.

do you think counter protesters will get a preferred spot from the city?

nbiggershaft · 02-12-2008, 06:39 PM

Wow, not welcome in my school may be fair. But not welcome in my city? Frankly I do find that disrespectful and a bit 'treasonous'.

How is this kind of bigotry ok just because it is against the military?

kinggovernor · 02-12-2008, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Wow, not welcome in my school may be fair. But not welcome in my city? Frankly I do find that disrespectful and a bit 'treasonous'.

How is this kind of bigotry ok just because it is against the military?

if you take federal funds it comes with strings attached. And that includes recruiters in school. If you don't want them in your school don't take the funding

thewise1 · 02-12-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

if you take federal funds it comes with strings attached. And that includes recruiters in school. If you don't want them in your school don't take the funding

Homeschooling ftw (although I don't really care about the recruiters in my school anyway)

bheld · 02-12-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

the Marine Corps does not accept kids, you can sign up at 17 only if you have finished high school and your parents sign off on it

I never said they did accept kids. But that doesn't mean they can't target them with slick marketing.

Scrum · 02-12-2008, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

the Marine Corps does not accept kids, you can sign up at 17 only if you have finished high school and your parents sign off on it

17 year olds are kids.

For that matter, 18 and 19 year olds are kids as well.

7960 · 02-12-2008, 09:57 PM

didn't read the article

If I'm a private business owner, is Berkeley saying I can't rent space to the military for a recruitment office?

7960 · 02-12-2008, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

17 year olds are kids.

For that matter, 18 and 19 year olds are kids as well.

No, they're legally adults and can enter into contracts and all that other fun stuff adults get to do (except drink and be president or a senator).

kinggovernor · 02-13-2008, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Scrum

17 year olds are kids.

For that matter, 18 and 19 year olds are kids as well.

that is why 17 year olds need both parents to sign, like my did.

18 and 19 year olds are adults they can vote, get married etc.

bheld · 02-13-2008, 03:21 PM

Brain research has shown that development of impulse-control mechanisms is not complete until the early 20s. That has large implications for this debate specifically.

While 18 year old men may be adults in the eyes of the law they are still not fully developed. This research sheds new light on the quintessential enlistment story involving somebody joining up in some sort of reaction to recent personal events.