The Case Against Public Education -Locking a Nation Into Permanent Childhood

[thewise1]

The case against public education cannot be made to someone who hasn't experienced a better alternative, as seen in this thread.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

When talking about the education system in this country and how much of a "failure" it is...people seem to ignore the fact that a lot of the kids it's "failing" are complete dipshits. Even if they had the greatest education system ever conceived a lot of kids would STILL take if for granted and give less than stellar effort to better themselves. Then there are those certain parents and all their "outrage" about how bad the system is and how much of a failure it is...yet these are the same people that can't get their kids to take any of it seriously. The people failed the system as much as the system failed the people.

You are correct here - and now I have to ask the question: Should we spend resources trying to force these folks to learn, given the fact that they ruin the experience for those who actually want to learn?

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by thewise1

You are correct here - and now I have to ask the question: Should we spend resources trying to force these folks to learn, given the fact that they ruin the experience for those who actually want to learn?

We SHOULD spend though AND use the money properly to create the best possible product. There is also a % of people who DO try hard and don't let the idiots spoil their initiative and drive to learn.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by thewise1

You are correct here - and now I have to ask the question: Should we spend resources trying to force these folks to learn, given the fact that they ruin the experience for those who actually want to learn?

I think there is value in educating even the ones who don't want to learn. Society in general benefits from a public that is literate, can do a little math etc.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

The case against public education cannot be made to someone who hasn't experienced a better alternative, as seen in this thread.

It's almost laughable to me that the typical libertarian response to any issue where a number of people disagree with their conclusion is something to the effect of "You just don't know enough about the subject, because if you did, you'd agree with me."

The elitist attitude of being smarter, better read, having to talk down to the simple folk to explain why you're [general usage] so obviously right is really a put off for many people, including me.

I see it so many times, issue after issue.. is it any wonder so many continue to reject your ideology as a platform they're willing to vote for?

There are certainly pitfalls with the public education system, but again, that's true with ANY system, including a fully privatized one.

Getting rid of public education completely is a ridiculous idea. Many people in this country wouldn't be able to afford to send their kids to school at all, and you'd create a permanent (illiterate) underclass of people who have never been given a chance to attain the skills they'd need to get out of their situation through hard work and determination.

The children of those people would be in the same situation because they wouldn't be able to be sent to school either, as I doubt the wages of people with absolutely no education would be able to afford to send their children anywhere.

As Phantom said and has been said in similar threads in the past, our society benefits tremendously from having an educated population. If you look at countries that do better than ours (mostly European, Chinese).. do they have a completely private school system?

No, most of Japan's schools are public, Finland and other quasi-socialist European countries also rank higher than us.. so the idea that public or government run education system should be abandoned because it doesn't work isn't based in reality..

Ours has problems that need to be addressed, but scrapping the entire system completely in favor of a completely private system isn't the way to go.

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

There are certainly pitfalls with the public education system, but again, that's true with ANY system, including a fully privatized one.

Ours has problems that need to be addressed, but scrapping the entire system completely in favor of a completely private system isn't the way to go.

The "problem" is not public education. The "problem" is pieces of a bunch of stuff. The best performing schools in the country don't have the "best" teachers or the "best" parents or the "best" programs. What they do have is parents who are more involved, an atmosphere where kids are expected to do better, and schools that have high expectations of all their teachers. I've mentioned before, Bedford MA is a very highly regarded school in Mass. Their kids aren't any smarter than anyone else's but they consistently score higher on state-wide tests because they're expected to.....that means parents make sure kids study, the dumb ones get tutoring, and the ones who do poorly hear about it from friends (peer pressure isn't always bad ).

Originally Posted by thewise1

The case against public education cannot be made to someone who hasn't experienced a better alternative, as seen in this thread.

I've experienced both as both a student and teacher . IMO there's as much "I paid for a private school so I *must* have gotten a better education" in your argument as there is anything else. In other words if someone spends extra on something I'm going to guess he's going to tell everyone it's better even if it's not.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

It's almost laughable to me that the typical libertarian response to any issue where a number of people disagree with their conclusion is something to the effect of "You just don't know enough about the subject, because if you did, you'd agree with me."

The elitist attitude of being smarter, better read, having to talk down to the simple folk to explain why you're [general usage] so obviously right is really a put off for many people, including me.

I see it so many times, issue after issue.. is it any wonder so many continue to reject your ideology as a platform they're willing to vote for?

There are certainly pitfalls with the public education system, but again, that's true with ANY system, including a fully privatized one.

Getting rid of public education completely is a ridiculous idea. Many people in this country wouldn't be able to afford to send their kids to school at all, and you'd create a permanent (illiterate) underclass of people who have never been given a chance to attain the skills they'd need to get out of their situation through hard work and determination.

The children of those people would be in the same situation because they wouldn't be able to be sent to school either, as I doubt the wages of people with absolutely no education would be able to afford to send their children anywhere.

As Phantom said and has been said in similar threads in the past, our society benefits tremendously from having an educated population. If you look at countries that do better than ours (mostly European, Chinese).. do they have a completely private school system?

No, most of Japan's schools are public, Finland and other quasi-socialist European countries also rank higher than us.. so the idea that public or government run education system should be abandoned because it doesn't work isn't based in reality..

Ours has problems that need to be addressed, but scrapping the entire system completely in favor of a completely private system isn't the way to go.

Well, you can write off what I'm saying, but most people that make this argument write it off anyway, so I have very little motivation to bother.

I've grown up outside the system. I've seen what it does.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

The "problem" is not public education. The "problem" is pieces of a bunch of stuff. The best performing schools in the country don't have the "best" teachers or the "best" parents or the "best" programs. What they do have is parents who are more involved, an atmosphere where kids are expected to do better, and schools that have high expectations of all their teachers. I've mentioned before, Bedford MA is a very highly regarded school in Mass. Their kids aren't any smarter than anyone else's but they consistently score higher on state-wide tests because they're expected to.....that means parents make sure kids study, the dumb ones get tutoring, and the ones who do poorly hear about it from friends (peer pressure isn't always bad ).


I've experienced both as both a student and teacher . IMO there's as much "I paid for a private school so I *must* have gotten a better education" in your argument as there is anything else. In other words if someone spends extra on something I'm going to guess he's going to tell everyone it's better even if it's not.

I didn't go to private school, my friend, and my education probably cost a LOT less than even the cheapest public education.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Well, you can write off what I'm saying, but most people that make this argument write it off anyway, so I have very little motivation to bother.

I've grown up outside the system. I've seen what it does.

If you think you can prove me wrong or what you're saying right, feel free. I'll definitely read what you have to say with an open mind. I see a lot of posturing and rhetoric in this thread and some demagoguery in the original articles, but other than that.. not a lot of facts to refute anything anyone else has posted in opposition.

Like, for example, since not all parents have the qualifications or the time to home school their children, and many wouldn't be able to afford to send their children to private school.. what do you propose happen to the hundreds of thousand of lower class children who simply wouldn't ever receive any kind of formal education?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

I didn't go to private school, my friend, and my education probably cost a LOT less than even the cheapest public education.

I just got a mental image of John McCain with that "my friend" thing

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

I didn't go to private school, my friend, and my education probably cost a LOT less than even the cheapest public education.

I'm not your friend.

Wow. Same comment in the same thread. I'll just copy/paste and change a word or two for my own ease.

The problem is you're cherry picking and saying "We don't need mass public education now because I didn't go and did just fine."

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by thewise1

The case against public education cannot be made to someone who hasn't experienced a better alternative, as seen in this thread.

Or by people who have such a vested interest in the current system.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, I simply suggest they lack objectivity.

[7960]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Or by people who have such a vested interest in the current system.

And you realize the people who didn't go through "the current system" also have a vested interest in making whatever "system" they went through seem superior. Right?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

And you realize the people who didn't go through "the current system" also have a vested interest in making whatever "system" they went through seem superior. Right?

It doesn't need defense, it speaks for itself.

motivez, I would absolutely love to discuss this in more detail sometime. Quite frankly, my thought process involved seeing this thread, agreeing with it, and posting a semi-trollish comment in it because there is no way I've got the necessary time to devote to arguing my position here to a lot of people who will never even consider adopting it or parts of it.

I probably shouldn't have responded at all, because what I did write comes off as extremely arrogant.

My hope is that when I actually have the time to devote to it, I'll be able to make a case for a better education system that encourages learning, instead of suppressing it as I've seen our current system do in many cases.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by motivez

It's almost laughable to me that the typical libertarian response to any issue where a number of people disagree with their conclusion is something to the effect of "You just don't know enough about the subject, because if you did, you'd agree with me."

The elitist attitude of being smarter, better read, having to talk down to the simple folk to explain why you're [general usage] so obviously right is really a put off for many people, including me.

I think that your view is personalizing the Individualist argument as if it is an offensive against you. The Individualist argument is a defensive argument against the rational of a number of people, (a collective), that insists that its involuntary (force) system is superior to their Individual views; "You're views are irrelevant because we decide what truth is and will make you do it our way for your own good". The Individualist response is a stern stance that I am have my own take on the issue and affirm that the decision is mine alone to make for myself, and I know what is best for me.

I see it so many times, issue after issue.. is it any wonder so many continue to reject your ideology as a platform they're willing to vote for?

Yes those pesky individuals never cease to form their own opinions and champion their right to self determination.

And who has ever accused the majority of people of having wisdom and rationality? People vote for such superficial reasons that you cannot interpret any philosophical intent from their votes.

There are certainly pitfalls with the public education system, but again, that's true with ANY system, including a fully privatized one.

The pursuit of a system without any pitfalls is the deadly quest for utopia. The question is whether everybody should be forced to participate in an official imperfect system, or should they be free to decide for themselves the best way to teach their young.

Getting rid of public education completely is a ridiculous idea. Many people in this country wouldn't be able to afford to send their kids to school at all, and you'd create a permanent (illiterate) underclass of people who have never been given a chance to attain the skills they'd need to get out of their situation through hard work and determination.

Before public school in the Midwest and South, kids were educated at home and then on to community schooling like the one room schoolhouses which FAR outperformed our current system on a SHOESTRING budget. Kids were also sent to hoity toity private schools. Kids were sent to religious schools. Kids were sent to military schools. Kids were sent to apprenticeships. Some kids were taught to farm. Some were taught to ranch. Some were taught to hunt. And yes... there were some who were not taught at all.

The children of those people would be in the same situation because they wouldn't be able to be sent to school either, as I doubt the wages of people with absolutely no education would be able to afford to send their children anywhere.

Religious schools and apprenticeships, instead of a ghetto day prison with metal detectors and crack dealers. Either becoming competent and experienced as skilled labor while still a teen or being driven through a challenging education by a ruler cracking nun.... or learning gang signs and ebonics....

To say that any alternative to public education is ridiculous lacks imagination and vision.

If you look at countries that do better than ours (mostly European, Chinese).. do they have a completely private school system?

No, most of Japan's schools are public, Finland and other quasi-socialist European countries also rank higher than us..

This is very arguable. I have seen some of these comparisons before that were between your average American public school student vs. schools with hand picked students. Education in other countries is not always egalitarian in that they do not seek to educate every child. Also, we have a LOT of kids that are not designed for scholastic achievement.

so the idea that public or government run education system should be abandoned because it doesn't work isn't based in reality..

And your perception of reality is not bathed in the glowing light of pure universal truth.

Ours has problems that need to be addressed, but scrapping the entire system completely in favor of a completely private system isn't the way to go.

Forcing participation in any system, especially one that is admittedly flawed, is not only immoral, it is unwise.

It is a great tragedy that we waste our brightest by shackling them to the dimmest during their internment in government religious schools, never able to regain the time spent or the fire of youth stifled.

[bheld]

It's a good thing nobody agrees. That's the problem with democracy, crackpot ideas don't get any play.

With a "case" like this against public education, it's no wonder these ideas never get any traction with the public. People don't usually go for lazy, bloviated rhetoric.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Yes those pesky individuals never cease to form their own opinions and champion their right to self determination.

And here we see it again, like somehow there's a need to talk down to everyone who forms their own opinion based on experience and knowledge about an issue that disagrees with the conclusion you like.

Originally Posted by RockPusher

And who has ever accused the majority of people of having wisdom and rationality? People vote for such superficial reasons that you cannot interpret any philosophical intent from their votes.

I think you can, time and time again the ideology is rejected for one they believe aims to bring people closer together to make our society a better place to live for everyone, instead of simply one's self.

Originally Posted by RockPusher

The pursuit of a system without any pitfalls is the deadly quest for utopia. The question is whether everybody should be forced to participate in an official imperfect system, or should they be free to decide for themselves the best way to teach their young.

You're offering a false choice, no one is forced to go to public school. Parents are able to home school their children or send them to a number of private institutions (some with vastly different formats than traditional public education) if they are wealthy enough to afford it.

You are only forced to pay into the system through taxes.. but that's the case in many instances of things that benefit our entire society.. and it's indisputable that having an educated society benefits us in many ways.

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Before public school in the Midwest and South, kids were educated at home and then on to community schooling like the one room schoolhouses which FAR outperformed our current system on a SHOESTRING budget. Kids were also sent to hoity toity private schools. Kids were sent to religious schools. Kids were sent to military schools. Kids were sent to apprenticeships. Some kids were taught to farm. Some were taught to ranch. Some were taught to hunt. And yes... there were some who were not taught at all.

I'd be interested in seeing studies that show kids were better educated by that system than public school systems around the world, ie: Japan, Finland, etc..

Because if they can't outperform all publicly funded education systems, then it's certainly not a system we should try to emulate now, we should be trying to emulate those systems which outperform ours and all others.

Originally Posted by RockPusher