Democratic Debate Open Thread

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Scrum

But Hilary's excuse for the vote is not that Bush mislead her with intel that was cherry-picked (although it did happen that way).
It's that she thought she was voting for more inspections., which is ridiculous considering the name of the bill.

Forgot about that! It ranks up there with that bill she voted for in 2001 and said though she voted for it she hoped it didn't pass

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Scrum

But Hilary's excuse for the vote is not that Bush mislead her with intel that was cherry-picked (although it did happen that way).
It's that she thought she was voting for more inspections., which is ridiculous considering the name of the bill.

We're getting off on some kind of tangent here, I'm not defending Hillary's vote or her reasoning and don't see a reason to continue debating that point.

I'm simply agreeing with hsmith that when you compare Hillary and Obama's stance on the war, it's important to take into account the fact that Obama wasn't elected at the time and wasn't privy to the information that Hillary was, and had he been mislead the way much of the Congress was by the false intelligence reports, he may have voted a different way.

We'll never know, because he wasn't burdened with that responsibility or privy to that information.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Sorry but when it comes to serious matters like war, there is no excuse for going as fast and reckless as the entire congress did. They allowed the President to bully them - which is a dereliction of duty on the congress part. Their job is to check the President so stuff like this doesn't happen, they didn't do that. When it came down to one of the most important issues a congress has to decide, they dropped the ball big time. Don't you believe their should be political consequences for that?

Sure, who's defending their actions? Not me.

You're trying to make me defend her position on the war, etc.. which I have no desire to do, when my response is limited to a comparison of their positions on Iraq at the time.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by motivez

Sure, who's defending their actions? Not me.

You're trying to make me defend her position on the war, etc.. which I have no desire to do, when my response is limited to a comparison of their positions on Iraq at the time.

Point taken, but your reply post to HSmith implicitly gave a pass to congress for voting for the war - something I don't agree with it. If Congress is wrong for the reasons I stated, then Obama has every right to talk about it and to say he indeed exercised better judgment then they did.

[motivez]

I'm not giving them a pass, but it's certainly more understandable given the amount of misleading and outright deception from the Bush Administration.

Sure, Obama can talk about being against the Iraq war, but as I stated, most people conveniently ignore the fact that he wasn't in Congress and wasn't responsible for a vote on the matter.. had he been elected to the Senate earlier and had been briefed with the same misleading and classified intelligence reports Congress was, he might have gone a different way.. and like I said, we'll never know.

People should take that into consideration when comparing the positions.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here it is:

YouTube Video

Ok, where is that SNL video she was talking about She is right, but as long as it's against her, it's ok with me.

[JaJae]

Who does everyone think won the debate?

I think Obama won the debate. I think before the first commercial break Hillary did well (aside from her SNL line). But after that it was just all Obama. Hillary came off desperate as evidenced by her SNL line and all the video they had of her.

They tried to get a video of Obama behaving similar to Hillary to be fair, but I think most people realized his video was nowhere near the level of Hillary and it was quickly brushed off. Hillary came off as desperate. Obama came off as presidential. He gave her a pass on all her negativity and his mannerisms were just plain old presidential in nature.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Ok, where is that SNL video she was talking about She is right, but as long as it's against her, it's ok with me.

Here

YouTube Video

[motivez]

I think aside from NAFTA and the vote on Iraq, Hillary won on substance for the reasons I listed back on page 1

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here

YouTube Video

They hit it on the head there. That was great. Poor Hillary (I really don't mean that)

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

They hit it on the head there. That was great. Poor Hillary (I really don't mean that)

This is what she referenced? She is getting desperate and I think its starting to show more each day..

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

This is what she referenced? She is getting desperate and I think its starting to show more each day..

She feels she is being treated unfairly (which she is) and SNL made a skit out of it and she referenced it. She is frustrated with the obviousness of it and is trying to make people see it as well. The only thing is, no one cares if she isn't treated fairly. It's not the coronation she was expecting when she decided to run and she has to get over it.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

She feels she is being treated unfairly (which she is) and SNL made a skit out of it and she referenced it. She is frustrated with the obviousness of it and is trying to make people see it as well. The only thing is, no one cares if she isn't treated fairly. It's not the coronation she was expecting when she decided to run and she has to get over it.

The media will always show a bias towards politicians they prefer. In the start of the primaries the media was very much behind Hillary and even threw debates in her favor.

When she was on the receiving end of the media glorification she didn't complain and neither did Obama. I agree the media as a whole is biased towards Obama, but I think that's only natural with someone as polarizing as Hillary. I mean let's be honest here, she's pulled the race card, feminist card, etc on many, many issues. She's a highly polarizing figure and makes no qualms about it. If she were a Republican she would have it far, far worse. So it's hard for me to join the pity parade, she brought it on herself and all things considered she's still getting a pretty sweet deal.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

She feels she is being treated unfairly (which she is) and SNL made a skit out of it and she referenced it. She is frustrated with the obviousness of it and is trying to make people see it as well. The only thing is, no one cares if she isn't treated fairly. It's not the coronation she was expecting when she decided to run and she has to get over it.

Hmm you lose 11 contents in a row, what does she expect? She wasn't complaining a few months ago when the media was practically giving her the crown. She had leads in almost ever state and nationally. But her bad campaigning (mostly the campaign strategist fault) and general arrogance and now whinyness is the reason she is losing.

Obama didn't complain about the media when they were circulating unsubstantiated smear news stories about him, nor did he cry media bias in the early debates when the focus was really only on Edwards and Hill.

After seeing her displays, I am hoping she doesn't get elected, her unstableness is disturbing. If Obama doesn't get the nomination I am voting McCain

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

Sure, Obama can talk about being against the Iraq war, but as I stated, most people conveniently ignore the fact that he wasn't in Congress and wasn't responsible for a vote on the matter...

Your probably right. It is not a fair comparison.

To bad I despise Hillary enough not to care.


Now Obama can explain how he will pay the cost when he returns troops to Iraq if Al Qaeda rebuilds it forces in that country right after we bail? I heard his answer to McCain today and it was pointing more fingers at the past. Not what his responsibilities will be as President!

[JaJae]

In the debate Hillary said she wants her records released from the archives as soon as possible and hopes the White House won't slow it down. The White House is calling BS on her excuse..
Political Radar: White House Blames Clintons for Document Delay

The White House on Wednesday blamed the Clintons for a month-long delay in the release of some 11,000 pages of records relating to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s years as first lady, despite Sen. Clinton’s contention at Tuesday night’s debate that she has “urged that the process [of releasing documents] be as quick as possible.”

White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said that Clinton representatives have known since Jan. 31 that the documents — Hillary Clinton’s daily public schedule during her husband’s presidency — have been deemed ready for public release by the National Archives.

But under a November 2001 exectuive order, the White House can’t make them available to the public until approval is given by a designated representative of former President Bill Clinton.

“Presently, we have not received notice that the Clinton representative has reached a decision on the release or withholding of any of Mrs. Clinton’s schedules,” Perino said, adding that the White House has not objected to approval of any of the more than 550,000 pages of documents released so far from the Clinton years.

On top of this Hillary said she was very busy, but would like to release her income statements. How hard is it to call up her accountant on her cell phone and say "Hey, fax this report to ****" Hell, her campaign managed to get a photo of Obama in a turban out to the world pretty damned fast. This should be a walk in the park.

It definitely seems as if she's hiding something. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. But she's giving off the appearance that she's hiding something. I wonder if she'll ever release the information.

[motivez]

Is there proof now that photo came from the Clinton campaign btw? Last I heard there wasn't any

Also, it's not like this White House is the most credible, but that said.. Clinton could certainly be doing more to get them out there. I'm sure they don't want them released for a political reason, maybe they'd be able to examine her schedule and find out exactly how extensive her 'experience' for those years really was, etc..

[JaJae]

Her campaign is now saying they won't release her tax records any time soon...

CLEVELAND (AP) - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton says she won't release her tax returns until she has the Democratic presidential nomination in hand, and not before tax filing time comes in mid-April.

Clinton argued for openness Tuesday night during her latest debate with Democratic rival Barack Obama.

"I will release my tax returns," Clinton said during the debate. "I have consistently said I will do that once I become the nominee, or even earlier."

Pressed about the timing of releasing her tax returns, campaign aides were more reticent Wednesday, indicating that Clinton would not release the sensitive financial data during a hotly contested primary, but only at tax filing time.

My Way News - Clinton Won't Release Taxes Soon