New HBO mini-series this month. John Adams

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Was the shot that killed his son a "lucky" one as well? Sounds like the Hamiltons were just pissin' everyone off.

I kid. <3

Well that makes more sense. I didn't realize his stance on dueling, nor have I heard that people didn't generally kill during a duel. The latter part, though, I'm still hesitant to believe. The duels of the century after his death were for the purpose of killing, and as you mentioned, his son died in a duel as well. So I'm not so sure that I buy that part of the story (though admittedly I know very little about the practice of dueling at the time), but I can definitely accept that he was personally opposed to dueling. It makes the story of the perfect altruist martyr, sacrificing himself unto the bullet of his worst enemy, seem more realistic.

The duel with Burr was also in part a calculated effort. You have to remember, in 1800 Jefferson and Burr ended up with the same number of electoral votes. Hamilton found Burr as president such a dangerous proposition that he expended pretty much all of his remaining political clout on getting Jefferson, his archenemy, elected over Burr by the Congress.

Burr was already on the decline by the time of the duel, but Hamilton knew that for the Vice President to engage in a duel would be a PR nightmare even in that time, and would be the final nail in the coffin of Burr's political career. So it was part stubbornness and part calculated risk, he just didn't calculate the risk correctly and ended up dying because of it.

As much as I know you dislike Hamilton, I really would suggest reading Chernow's Hamilton biography. It is fairly even-handed, it doesn't paint Hamilton as some selfless deity sent by the gods above, and a very insightful work about the man.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Fair enough. I could give it a whirl. I'll see if I can find an audiobook of it. If not, then I'll try to steal a PDF. No way I'm gonna PAY for that trash.




I don't hate Hamilton. I just think he was extremely sneaky and abusive to the democratic process (creating political parties and enemies and setting the course for collectivism and statism in the future to come). Because of his tactics, though, I think we should have learned a valuable lesson. The fact that nobody stepped up to the plate to call him out on his party-line bullshit makes his contemporaries nearly as guilty as him, in regards to the abuse.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Fair enough. I could give it a whirl. I'll see if I can find an audiobook of it. If not, then I'll try to steal a PDF. No way I'm gonna PAY for that trash.




I don't hate Hamilton. I just think he was extremely sneaky and abusive to the democratic process (creating political parties and enemies and setting the course for collectivism and statism in the future to come). Because of his tactics, though, I think we should have learned a valuable lesson. The fact that nobody stepped up to the plate to call him out on his party-line bullshit makes his contemporaries nearly as guilty as him, in regards to the abuse.

Hamilton was more statist than Jefferson, sure, but it was many of his life experiences that pushed him that direction. He had a hard time believing that it was possible for the general population to ever be educated enough to do what was truly in their own best interests (turns out he was right, looking around at our society today).

He was the Thomas Hobbes of the American founding, whereas Jefferson was the John Locke... Both understood liberty and freedom and saw it as desirable in most circumstances, but they had widely differing views on how to protect and defend that liberty from its greatest enemy (which to Hamilton was the people themselves, and to Jefferson the chance of monarchy rearing its head once again).

One of the few things that biographers on both sides tend to get right is the fact that Jefferson and Hamilton really were excellent foils for one-another.

[Publius]

In many ways Adams was far more statist than Hamilton, his hatred of Hamilton was almost purely a personal one based on his own vanity than one related in any way to political philosophies.

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by Publius

Hamilton was more statist than Jefferson, sure, but it was many of his life experiences that pushed him that direction. He had a hard time believing that it was possible for the general population to ever be educated enough to do what was truly in their own best interests (turns out he was right, looking around at our society today).

He was the Thomas Hobbes of the American founding, whereas Jefferson was the John Locke... Both understood liberty and freedom and saw it as desirable in most circumstances, but they had widely differing views on how to protect and defend that liberty from its greatest enemy (which to Hamilton was the people themselves, and to Jefferson the chance of monarchy rearing its head once again).

One of the few things that biographers on both sides tend to get right is the fact that Jefferson and Hamilton really were excellent foils for one-another.

One point - tyranny comes in many forms, government and the people included. History has plainly shown that the tyranny and destruction of an oppresive government far exceeds anything the people themselves can do. No doubt that the "masses" can be oppressive and must be checked but the greater danger (and the tougher to check) is from unbridled government.

[Ardentfrost]

One of the things I could never get over about Hamilton was that he basically lead a standing army without the consent of the president (Adams). As much against that sort of thing that all the founders were, him doing that seemingly to undermine Adams' presidency was just not good at all. The man could lead a whole nation of people with his written word, he most certainly did NOT need an army to do anything.

[T.R.]

How is hamilton anything like Thomas Hobbes. There is a difference Thomas Hobbes was a pesimistic monarchist and Hamilton also distrusted the people yes but he didnt say they were inherently evil and also believed in the government that the constitution created. Also I doubt Thomas Hobbes could do the wonders with money that hamilton could.

As far as jefferson being like John Locke locke believed in the Parliamentry government that england had not some fragmented confederacy worked by slaves. Remember Locke still wanted a government.

Note: If this came out sounding less polite or took you a back or anything my apologies that wasnt my intention

[lew]

Originally Posted by motivez

Seriously?

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

no way.

Yes, it was really, really pathetic.


All of us on here are the privileged few.


We may disagree about whether so-and-so was good or bad, or which political philosophy is best, but at least we know about politics, history, and government.

The vast majority of Americans don't know the first thing about any of those.

[lew]

Originally Posted by T.R.

How is hamilton anything like Thomas Hobbes. There is a difference Thomas Hobbes was a pesimistic monarchist and Hamilton also distrusted the people yes but he didnt say they were inherently evil and also believed in the government that the constitution created. Also I doubt Thomas Hobbes could do the wonders with money that hamilton could.

As far as jefferson being like John Locke locke believed in the Parliamentry government that england had not some fragmented confederacy worked by slaves. Remember Locke still wanted a government.

Note: If this came out sounding less polite or took you a back or anything my apologies that wasnt my intention

They were not exactly the same but Hamilton was Hobbesian and Jefferson was Lockesian.

[motivez]

Anyone else as sad as I am to see this end this Sunday? It's been really amazing so far IMO.

I wish it was a longer series

I don't know how the ratings have been so far (does anyone?) but I hope they were good enough to make HBO decide to do more similar series on other founding fathers and other historical topics

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

Yes, it was really, really pathetic.


All of us on here are the privileged few.


We may disagree about whether so-and-so was good or bad, or which political philosophy is best, but at least we know about politics, history, and government.

The vast majority of Americans don't know the first thing about any of those.

I think it's wonderful that HBO has stepped up to the plate to educate people on at least a bit of history.


The problems will arise when others decide to copy HBO while inserting propaganda as well.

[T.R.]

Originally Posted by lew

They were not exactly the same but Hamilton was Hobbesian and Jefferson was Lockesian.

Stilll how is hamilton Hobbsian

[motivez]

Anyone catch the final episode on Sunday?

I haven't had a chance to watch it, hopefully tomorrow

[Dumpy Dooby]

It hasn't hit the 'net yet, which is just plain weird.

I have it on HBO OnDemand, so I'll probably watch it later.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

Anyone catch the final episode on Sunday?

I haven't had a chance to watch it, hopefully tomorrow

Yeah, it was really, really good. Great series. My wife and I are both sad to see it is over. Seemed too short.

I would love to see them make a series with the same actors but about Jefferson. His path and life was so different than Adams it would be interesting to see it on film.

Hell, maybe one with Washington as well. I still can't believe how much David Morse looked like him.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yeah, it was really, really good. Great series. My wife and I are both sad to see it is over. Seemed too short.

I would love to see them make a series with the same actors but about Jefferson. His path and life was so different than Adams it would be interesting to see it on film.

Hell, maybe one with Washington as well. I still can't believe how much David Morse looked like him.

Yeah, very sad to see it end.. but I guess dragging it on for too long would have made it seem a weaker piece of cinema

I think one about Jefferson and Washington etc would be great as well.. if they could get the same people involved it'd be fantastic

And yeah, it took me a minute to realize who he was when I first saw him, but once I heard his voice I knew immediately.

[Thorgrim]

does if anyone know if the ratings were anything worthwhile?

band of brothers took off...but rome had decent but struggling ratings (certainly not enough to justify 10 million an episode)...i have a feeling john adams will be low too...but the pacific version of band of brothers that is upcoming will have a ratings surge

people love WW2...from the american side...

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

does if anyone know if the ratings were anything worthwhile?

band of brothers took off...but rome had decent but struggling ratings (certainly not enough to justify 10 million an episode)...i have a feeling john adams will be low too...but the pacific version of band of brothers that is upcoming will have a ratings surge

people love WW2...from the american side...

I suspect that John Adams didn't cost nearly as much as Rome did, but you also have to note that Rome was joint venture between HBO and the BBC. John Adams was produced by HBO, which makes it more akin to Band of Brothers in that sense. I'm not sure if any overseas broadcasters have purchased any episodes.

My guess is that if American audiences don't get the show high enough ratings, then there's no chance of a spin-off series coming out.

[Stylerod]

I'm not even sure how they figure ratings for a pay channel. You gotta figure maybe 5% of the population has HBO? Maybe, probably less actually. And then how many are watching it. Which might be pretty decent numbers since it's on more than once a week. But compared to American Idol it probably looks pitiful. But that doesn't mean it wasn't successful. The Soprano's was hugely successful but I'm sure they didn't have any numbers like some network shows.

Soon they will have DVD sales and that will make them quite a bit of money as well. A few of my friends already said they plan to buy it when it comes out.