A switch in terror roles

Thorgrim · 09-11-2006, 02:25 PM

(Blatantly stolen from Peyomp)

July 30, 1996
Web posted at: 8:40 p.m. EDT
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton urged Congress Tuesday to act swiftly in developing anti-terrorism legislation before its August recess

"We need to keep this country together right now. We need to focus on this terrorism issue," Clinton said during a White House news conference.

...

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emerged from the meeting and said, "These are very controversial provisions that the White House wants. Some they're not going to get."

Hatch called Clinton's proposed study of taggants -- chemical markers in explosives that could help track terrorists -- "a phony issue."

CNN - President wants Senate to hurry with new laws - July 30, 1996

Yet the American people trust the Republicans more than Democrats on terrorism *sigh*

I think one, just one Democratic president after 9/11 and that'll evaporate...

Scrum · 09-11-2006, 04:00 PM

I saw this over on the other forum. Good stuff.

SoFlaJDM · 09-11-2006, 07:06 PM

peyomp needs to come over here

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 09:48 AM

There is more to the Clinton administration than one news story. And even still if you look at the Democratic proposals or lack thereof, you'll see why Americans are willing to "settle" with the Republicans.

It isn't an accident that the American people don't trust Democrats with national security and terrorism. In fact, it's quite pathetic the people don't trust the Democrats more given how badly the Republicans are fucking up.

You'd think this would be an easy win for the Democrats, but they're light-years behind the Republicans on the issue of national security, just as they've always been.

DosEquis · 09-12-2006, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by JaJae

There is more to the Clinton administration than one news story.

I can agree with that.

Originally Posted by JaJae

And even still if you look at the Democratic proposals or lack thereof, you'll see why Americans are willing to "settle" with the Republicans.

It isn't an accident that the American people don't trust Democrats with national security and terrorism. In fact, it's quite pathetic the people don't trust the Democrats more given how badly the Republicans are fucking up.

You'd think this would be an easy win for the Democrats, but they're light-years behind the Republicans on the issue of national security, just as they've always been.

I think this is horse shit and sounds like a Sean Hannity GOP talking point. Democrats have had plenty of plans. Some of which are noted in the article from 1996, and other plans have been through out their minority status in government. The thing the republicans are most effective at is marginalizing their opponents ideas. They are just better at politics. They have actually sold an unconstitutional spying program to the american people, and have actually made democrats look foolish for a desire to have checks and balances such as warrants for the spying. They have actually made democrats look weak on national security issue by issue, by making it sound like they are making things complicated when all they are doing is insisting they follow the constitution.

It is really really sad, and based upon your opinion there it looks like even jajae has bought the republican rhetoric.

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

It is really really sad, and based upon your opinion there it looks like even jajae has bought the republican rhetoric.

It's not rhetoric. If you look at which party has been for establishing a firm military and expanding national security you'll see it's the Republicans. Even with the missile defense shield, the Republicans are the ones currently promoting it... the Democrats call it a waste of money and do everything they can to show how the results are "rigged" and downplay any progress.

Forget the PATRIOT Act, Hannity, Rush, everything else and if you look at what Clinton did to our military during his administration and compare it to Reagan or other past Republicans and you'll see which party is for supporting the military and our national security.

The fact that Democrats have fooled people into thinking it's all rhetoric is what's a shame. But, even still people defend the GOP and trust them more than the Dems. It's quite fitting.

Democrats and Republicans have always had different standards and goals towards our military and national security. After the GOP has been fucking up the Dems are trying to show that they're just as good if not better than the GOP. But the fact is, they have no plan... as usual. They are the ones with nothing but rhetoric.

DosEquis · 09-12-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

It's not rhetoric. If you look at which party has been for establishing a firm military and expanding national security you'll see it's the Republicans. Even with the missile defense shield, the Republicans are the ones currently promoting it... the Democrats call it a waste of money and do everything they can to show how the results are "rigged" and downplay any progress.

The missle shield is a waste of money because terrorist groups are not going to launch any missles. They will use other tactics such as a 'dirty' bomb. They can't afford ICBM missles. Other countries who have such a capability will launch dozens upon dozens of missles to achieve mutual assured destruction. The missle shield has enough trouble shooting one missle down, not to mention dozens. It has cost billions upon billions to develop and test this and we will never have to use it. Progress or not it is a waste of money.

Originally Posted by JaJae

Forget the PATRIOT Act, Hannity, Rush, everything else and if you look at what Clinton did to our military during his administration and compare it to Reagan or other past Republicans and you'll see which party is for supporting the military and our national security.

What did clinton do? Close some bases? Level off funding? When bush closes bases it is called a strategic realignment. When Clinton does it, its "omg destroying" the military. You are right, democrats do not support the military. Paul Hackett, no support there. John Murtha, no support for the military there. Wesley Clark, no support there. Bob Kerry, nope.. he doesn't support the military either. He just lost his leg. There are many democrats who were soldiers, and some are well decorated. To say democrats do not support the military is completely fucking retarded and it IS republican rhetoric. I have a feeling that 'being retarded' and 'republican rhetoric' is not coincidental.

Just sit back and really examine what invading Iraq has done for our national security, military, and credibility.

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 03:01 PM

First of all Clinton was a man who disliked the military. He kept pay stagnate. Recruiting problems started on his watch in 98-99, not Bush's. He closed bases, changed regulations, basically did everything he could to buttfuck the military including the "don't ask don't tell".

Originally Posted by Clinton

I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give.

We can go on all day and list names of congressmen who served in the military. That doesn't change the fact of what the two parties stand for. Democrats stand for a smaller more PC military while Republicans are for a larger military that is as effective as possible regardless of what's PC.

Bush may have been fucking up, but the Democrats haven't exactly won the hearts and minds of the American public when it comes to a strong military.

And I've never stated Democrats don't support the military. I said they have different standards than the Republicans. This up until 9/11 has been part of their party platform. They were once proud of being for a smaller military, and many still are. Only recently have they started to change their tune, yet they have no policy or plans of what to do.

Obviously we can start picking out individual politicians like Joe Lieberman who don't fit the Democratic mold. However, history shows which party is more aligned on defense. The Democrats drew that line and now they're eating it.

Scrum · 09-12-2006, 04:01 PM

Who really served?

Prominent Democrats

* Jim Webb, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate from Virginia -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)
* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)
* Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
* Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
* Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
* Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service

* Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
* Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
* Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
* Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
* Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)

* Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
* Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
* Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)

* Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
* Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
* Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
* Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
* Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
* Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career

Prominent Republicans

* Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
* House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
* Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
* Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
* Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
* George Felix Allen, Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)
* Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.

* GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
* VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
* Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

The wealthy have never yet sacrificed themselves upon the altar of patriotism. Graphic courtesy Bartcop.com. Thanks, Bartcop!
* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
* Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
* "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

* Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
* Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. Senator Bob Dole's Official Website
* Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. www.senate.gov - This page cannot be found.
* Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.
* Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
* Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")
* Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

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Democrats

* Chuck Robb, US Senator from Virginia, served in Vietnam
* Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star
* George McGovern, famous liberal, awarded Silver Star & DFC, dozens of missions during WWII.
* Former President Bill Clinton - avoided the draft through student deferments; in the autumn of 1969, Clinton entered the draft but received a high number (311) and was never called to serve. (CNN article.) "...it was his doubts about the morality of the war and the Selective Service system that led him to abandon the ROTC idea and to subject himself to a draft lottery. Only the luck of the draw - a high lottery number - kept him out. " (Jeff Greenfield, ABC News, quoting Gov. Clinton.)
* Former President Jimmy Carter, most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, seven years in the Navy. "Except for his fellow service-academy graduate Dwight Eisenhower, no President of the twentieth century spent more years in uniform than Carter." (New Yorker Magazine)
* Former Presidential Nominee Mike Dukakis - United States Army, 1955-'57 (1)
* Former Senator/Vice Presidential nominee Lloyd Bentsen - B-24 pilot in WWII 1942-'45, Squadron Commander; earned Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal with three Oak Leaf Clusters. (1)
* Former Vice President Walter Mondale, U.S. Army 1951-1953
* Former Senator John Glenn, D-OH (1974-1999) - Served in WWII and Korea; extensive military commendations include the Distinguished Flying Cross on six occasions, and the Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Congressman Tom Lantos, D-CA - Did not serve in the US military; did serve in the Hungarian anti-Nazi underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg, is the only Holocaust survivor to serve in Congress.

Great at cheering on others to do the fighting, yet too scared to enter the fray himself. Truly a wimp, like the rest of the chickenhawks.
Republicans/Conservatives
Political

* Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)
* Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve (1, 2)
* Senator John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve. (1)
* Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve (1, 2)
* Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)
* Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.
* Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2), had a "bad knee" (yet somehow feels he has a right to attack Max Cleland's patriotism)
* Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)
* Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)
* Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW) (1, 2)
* Eliot Abrams, did not serve (1, 2) (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
* Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)
* Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve (1, 2)
* Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2) (is the current bloodshed in the Middle East a direct result of his treasonous meddling in Clinton Administrstion foreign policy?)
* Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)
* Rudy Giuliani, did not serve (1, 2)
* Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)
* George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)
* Spencer Abraham, did not serve
* John Engler, did not serve (1, 2)
* Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
* Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve (1)
* Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
* Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve (1)
* Rep. Todd Platts, R-PA - did not serve (1)
* Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition

* George Herbert Walker Bush, pilot in WWII. Awarded Distinguished Flying Cross. Shot down by the Japanese; was lone survivor out of airplane (link).
* Representative Sam R. Johnson, combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam, POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973 (1)
(don't ever run for president Sam, they'll spread rumors that you're crazy)
* Senator Ted Stevens, R-AK, WW II pilot, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai medal awarded by the Republic of China.
* Sen. John Warner, R-VA - Served in the Navy 1945-1946 as a RM3; reenlisted in the USMC 1950, 10 years service in Marine Corps Reserve, retired as Captain.
* Congresswoman Heather Wilson, R-NM, served in the Air Force 1978-1989
* Former President Gerald Ford, served in the Navy, WWII
* Former Senator Strom Thurmond - apparently believes, along with Trent Lott, that America should have been a segregated society. Still, he served.

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unditocracy and Preacher-types (See also Media Whores Online)

* George Will, did not serve
* Chris Matthews, Mediawhore, did not serve.
* Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
* Paul Gigot, did not serve.
* Bill Bennett, Did not serve
* Pat Buchanan, did not serve
* Rush Limbaugh, did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst' [see "The Rush Limbaugh Story" by Paul D. Colford, St. Martin's Press, 1993, Chapter 2: Beating the Draft.])
* Michael Savage (aka Michael Alan Weiner) - did not serve, too busy chasing herbs and botany degrees in Hawaii and Fiji
* John Wayne, did not serve
* Pat Robertson - claimed during 1986 campaign to be a "combat veteran." In reality, was a "Liquor Officer."
* Bill Kristol, did not serve
* Sean Hannity, did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr, did not serve
* Antonin Scalia, did not serve
* Clarence Thomas, did not serve
* Ralph Reed, did not serve
* Michael Medved, did not serve
* Charlie Daniels, did not serve
* Ted Nugent, did not serve
* Country Singer Toby Keith, did not serve. (1)
* Radio Host Phil Hendrie, did not serve.

* Ollie North - Convicted in the Iran-Contra scandal, at least he served.
* Charlton Heston - served in WWII, but went AWOL when Michael Moore asked him some tough questions.

* James Carville, a.k.a. "Corporal Cueball" - Served in the United States Marine Corps, 1966-'68. (1)
* Markos Moulitsas, a.k.a. "Kos" (leading liberal blogger) - Served in the United States Army, 1989-'92. (1)

Independents

* Gov. Jesse Ventura, U.S. Navy SEAL training, did UDT work
* Senator Jim Jeffords, U.S. Navy 1956-1959

And let's not forget the Coast Guard...

The brave men and women of the United States Coast Guard risk their lives every day to protect our nation and save thousands of lives every year. The Coast Guard is in fact a branch of the United States Armed Forces.

* Congressman Gene Taylor (D-MI) served in the U.S. Coast Guard Reserve from 1971-1984. About Gene Taylor
* Congressman Howard Coble (R-NC) served in the U.S. Coast Guard (Active Duty)for 5.5 years. Served in the CG Reserve for 18 years. U.S. Congressman Howard Coble : 6th District Of North Carolina
* William Delahunt (D-MA) served in the U.S. Coast Guard Reserve from 1963-1971 http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/...m_Delahunt.htm

There is the list of who served btw.

And I didn't realize the president could cut the military budgets and downsize them (although this was right after the cold war) without approval from the congress? Clinton must be a magician to have pulled that off.

Ardentfrost · 09-12-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

There is the list of who served btw.

And I didn't realize the president could cut the military budgets and downsize them (although this was right after the cold war) without approval from the congress? Clinton must be a magician to have pulled that off.

He did make his cigar disappear once

Sorry, couldn't stop myself

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

There is the list of who served btw.

And I didn't realize the president could cut the military budgets and downsize them (although this was right after the cold war) without approval from the congress? Clinton must be a magician to have pulled that off.

What does this biased list have to do with Democratic vs Republican military policies for the past few decades?

motivez · 09-12-2006, 04:27 PM

biased

Scrum · 09-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

What does this biased list have to do with Democratic vs Republican military policies for the past few decades?

Biased list? How is a list of what people have done biased?

And it has everything to do with this thread.
You tried to say that the Republicans have it right compared to the Democrats. But they aren't the ones who have served. You listen to the people who have experience in the military on military matters.

I noticed to didn't even adress my second point. You blame Clinton for the military downsizing. How did he accomplish this with the Republicans fighting him on it and having control of the congress?

Thorgrim · 09-12-2006, 04:49 PM

Reality has a well known liberal bias!

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 04:50 PM

How can you read that list and say they gave equal treatment to both parties?

Give me a break guys. That list was made to promote Democratic agenda.

Scrum · 09-12-2006, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

How can you read that list and say they gave equal treatment to both parties?

Give me a break guys. That list was made to promote Democratic agenda.

Point to a person and say the list is wrong.

(Name) - (Served in blah blah blah or Did not serve)

Show me one of those that's wrong.

JaJae · 09-12-2006, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Point to a person and say the list is wrong.

(Name) - (Served in blah blah blah or Did not serve)

Show me one of those that's wrong.

It's not that it's wrong, but it's a selective list and the responses are biased.

I can't believe people in this country who have followed politics actually believe the Democrats are as gung-ho on the military as Republicans. This is just ridiculous.