Ethics and Earmarks

[JaJae]

There's been some talk lately about getting rid of earmarks. Both parties pretended to favor the measure. But now that it comes time it seems there's some waffling on both sides. The Democrats being in the position of power to frame the debate have done everything they could to prevent the vote and embarrass the Demcrats including a survey to be handed out to ONLY Republican members of Congress to check off and sign their views on earmarks.

The vote has been stalled, but now it finally looks like it could be coming despite great opposition from many politicians. One of them being Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid who had this to say about the bill:

Originally Posted by Harry Reid

As we look back in history, the Founding Fathers would be cringing to hear people talking about eliminating earmarks.

Now the Democrats are attempting to force a vote in the middle of the night in an attempt to prevent McCain from voting in support of the bill and giving an excuse for Clinton and Obama to not show up to vote.
TheHill.com - Senate GOP laments vote schedule

Senate Republicans complained Thursday that a high-profile vote on a temporary earmark ban would be pushed back until late in the night, limiting press coverage and possibly preventing presidential candidates from voting on the measure.

According to the office of Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), Republicans asked Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) to schedule the vote earlier in the day so that their presumptive nominee, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.), could cast a vote before returning to the campaign trail. But Reid declined, saying the vote wouldn’t occur until around midnight Thursday, if not later, according to DeMint aides.

“The porkers are throwing the kitchen sink at the earmark ban, using every trick to stop it,” said Wesley Denton, a spokesman for DeMint. “The white-knuckled grip on their pork would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Americans won't be fooled.”

Pelosi/Capuano are promoting an ethics reform bill that basically institutes a 6 person panel for people to bring up ethical issues to. They cannot subpoena anyone and don't really have any means of cleaning up Congress. A lot of politicians felt it was meaningless and just a unique way to start witch hunts and attack people politically. They wanted more debate.
Even some Democrats wanted to debate the bill, however, the Democratic leadership refused them the ability to do so.

YouTube Video

The bill was barreling down the scope of defeat, there was strong opposition against it by members who said they wanted to work towards "meaningful" ethics reform. The vote was over and a bipartisan "coalition" defeated the bill. In return Nancy Pelosi kept voting open, then strongarmed her party to vote in favor of it... A CLEAR violation of the ethics rules passed last January. In other words "the most ethical congress in history" lead by Pelosi violated Ethics rules to pass a "meaningless" ethics reform bill.

My personal take on all of this is that the Democrats are just trying to say they're doing something in regards to Ethics during the campaign year to boost their party. Republicans are opposing it in large part because it's stupid and also because they don't want to help the Democrats. If the Democrats were serious about cleaning things up they would have given this panel some form of authority. Instead all they serve is a panel to release complaints about members to the media... I wasn't aware we needed more federally appointed employees to start doing this task for us. We've never had a problem with this in the past.

[Thorgrim]

There is nothing unethical about a poor district that has families with children who can not afford to move being given money for business investments so families can work all day and put on their table instead of collecting food stamps or selling crack for basic living needs

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

There is nothing unethical about a poor district that has families with children who can not afford to move being given money for business investments so families can work all day and put on their table instead of collecting food stamps or selling crack for basic living needs

Because that's the typical earmark?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by motivez

Because that's the typical earmark?

earmarks generally bring in entry to medium level jobs into a district...they, generally, do not make an earmark to hire 20 consultants making $200,000 a year to look over their local walmart

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

earmarks generally bring in entry to medium level jobs into a district...they, generally, do not make an earmark to hire 20 consultants making $200,000 a year to look over their local walmart

There are other ways to create jobs and there are more transparent methods to spend our tax dollars. The earmarking system in America has become completely obscene. It has turned into a huge money pit for politicians to send money to their home districts to buy votes, hence the absurd incumbent structure our government has been involved in.

[kinggovernor]

if you hate earmarks vote McCain, he is one of the few that won't accept them for his state

[Thorgrim]

I also think its funny how people can't wait to get there IRS rebate, one big nationwide-pork, yet if we used that money and spent it to hire hundreds of thousands of americans so they'd be off welfare and working, producing for america, it'd be evil

whatever, people are just greedy for tax cuts and don't look at the big picture OR the local picture

funny how the biggest waste by faris the military...eliminate the marine corps, most of our navy, sell our fighters to NATO allies, settle for a small but advanced air force, local national guard for emergencies, special ops to deal with international problems, and a small defensive army...we'd save trillions upon trillions

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I also think its funny how people can't wait to get there IRS rebate, one big nationwide-pork, yet if we used that money and spent it to hire hundreds of thousands of americans so they'd be off welfare and working, producing for america, it'd be evil

whatever, people are just greedy for tax cuts and don't look at the big picture OR the local picture

funny how the biggest waste by faris the military...eliminate the marine corps, most of our navy, sell our fighters to NATO allies, settle for a small but advanced air force, local national guard for emergencies, special ops to deal with international problems, and a small defensive army...we'd save trillions upon trillions

I think the main difference is in transparency. Also I think most on this board don't think this 'stimulus' bill is a good idea.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I think the main difference is in transparency. Also I think most on this board don't think this 'stimulus' bill is a good idea.

That's exactly right. I'm a little taken aback that someone would defend the current earmark system we have in place despite all of its current abuses. In fact, I find it absolutely absurd. Transparency is key in politics and our tax money should not be snook into bills after they've been voted on to garnish votes... which is the real intent of most earmarks.

Earmarks were never intended for the abuse and corruption we are seeing today. Defending the current earmark system is absolutely ludicrous. Demanding transparency and ethical spending in no way prevents congressmen from asking for money for their home districts. They should be entitled to, but the current system is absurd and the wasteful spending needs to be controlled.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I also think its funny how people can't wait to get there IRS rebate, one big nationwide-pork, yet if we used that money and spent it to hire hundreds of thousands of americans so they'd be off welfare and working, producing for america, it'd be evil

whatever, people are just greedy for tax cuts and don't look at the big picture OR the local picture

funny how the biggest waste by faris the military...eliminate the marine corps, most of our navy, sell our fighters to NATO allies, settle for a small but advanced air force, local national guard for emergencies, special ops to deal with international problems, and a small defensive army...we'd save trillions upon trillions

and here is why liberals should never be allowed in power. When you get overcharged by the government and YOUR money is returned to you, that is a pork project.

[northhunter]

If it's such an worthy cause the money is to be spent on, why tack it on to something else? Why not debate the issue on it's own merits?
Don't sneak in some huge spending then try and tell me it's so damn honorable and truley needed. If it was it would be done in the ligh of day not under the table.
Whenever someone is trying to defend pork spending they never explain why it can't be done more honestly instead of as an add to something often unrelated that's sure to pass. And please don't tell me that's the way it's done as that's bull! Wrong is wrong, no matter how you slice it. If the ends don't justify the means in one situation they don't in another.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by northhunter

If it's such an worthy cause the money is to be spent on, why tack it on to something else? Why not debate the issue on it's own merits?
Don't sneak in some huge spending then try and tell me it's so damn honorable and truley needed. If it was it would be done in the ligh of day not under the table.
Whenever someone is trying to defend pork spending they never explain why it can't be done more honestly instead of as an add to something often unrelated that's sure to pass. And please don't tell me that's the way it's done as that's bull! Wrong is wrong, no matter how you slice it. If the ends don't justify the means in one situation they don't in another.

It's not wrong, just how could someone from Los Angelos get re-elected for voting on a bill that will help employment in Pennsylvania?

"When Rep. Smith was supposed to be representing California, he voted instead to send your tax dollars to Pennsylvania"

If all pork and pork-related spending ended tommorow, a significant number of districts (and americnas) would face soaring poverty levels and cities would be declaring bankruptcy

[northhunter]

That was exactly the point I was trying to make! If it's really needed, if terrible things will really happen if the money isn't spent then do it openly, honestly and tell us what it's for. Don't attach it at the last minute to something completly unrelated.
It's how it's being done I have the big problem with. Where's all the honesty we were promised in the last election? Hello?

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

It's not wrong, just how could someone from Los Angelos get re-elected for voting on a bill that will help employment in Pennsylvania?

"When Rep. Smith was supposed to be representing California, he voted instead to send your tax dollars to Pennsylvania"

If all pork and pork-related spending ended tommorow, a significant number of districts (and americnas) would face soaring poverty levels and cities would be declaring bankruptcy

He did not say they were wrong he said the way that many are pushed though sneakily without debate hooked on other bills are wrong, and not all pork is so wonderful.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by northhunter

That was exactly the point I was trying to make! If it's really needed, if terrible things will really happen if the money isn't spent then do it openly, honestly and tell us what it's for. Don't attach it at the last minute to something completly unrelated.
It's how it's being done I have the big problem with. Where's all the honesty we were promised in the last election? Hello?

Obama himself passed transparency in the senate ethics bills, which are usually whined about the most...the house passed strong ethics reform bills

and please, someone from PA telling a guy from Cali that "well we're facing a real financial problem here our people need jobs!" the guy from Cali will just go "you'll be fine" or "you don't know that for sure" or "a few jobs won't save your sorry district"

you have very great expectations about what people from across the coasts think "needs" money

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

He did not say they were wrong he said the way that many are pushed though sneakily without debate hooked on other bills are wrong, and not all pork is so wonderful.

like I just said, someone represnting vine farmers in Cali would laugh at Florida asking for money because of a frost crisis...the next year the same rep would be begging for money because of problems in the sierra valleys and the guy from Florida would laugh at him

my god, people were bitching and moaning about relieving New Orleans after a huge disaster, some conservatives outside LA were basically saying "hey they asked for it, we should abandon the city" or others saying "they should have prepared better"

and you expect them to vote millions of dollars because some Rep. thinks his district needs jobs? It'd be voted down everytime because the other Rep knows the commercials that could be made against him on it

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

There is nothing unethical about a poor district that has families with children who can not afford to move being given money for business investments so families can work all day and put on their table instead of collecting food stamps or selling crack for basic living needs

Actually, yes, that is very unethical.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I also think its funny how people can't wait to get there IRS rebate, one big nationwide-pork, yet if we used that money and spent it to hire hundreds of thousands of americans so they'd be off welfare and working, producing for america, it'd be evil

whatever, people are just greedy for tax cuts and don't look at the big picture OR the local picture

funny how the biggest waste by faris the military...eliminate the marine corps, most of our navy, sell our fighters to NATO allies, settle for a small but advanced air force, local national guard for emergencies, special ops to deal with international problems, and a small defensive army...we'd save trillions upon trillions

The "tax rebate" we're all getting is a fucking joke and most libertarians / conservatives know that it's a bad idea. It's you just liberals that think it's free money and a good idea.

[lew]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

and here is why liberals should never be allowed in power.

Then you shouldn't vote for McCain.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

If all pork and pork-related spending ended tommorow, a significant number of districts (and americnas) would face soaring poverty levels and cities would be declaring bankruptcy

That is complete nonsense.