I assume you'll have no trouble then quantifying the gap between Obama's policy proposals and the other candidates in the race. What exactly is it? Where is he lacking? All of these slams on his non-specificity are ambiguous themselves....
03-19-2008, 02:39 PM
| #81 | ||||
| Policy Wonk  Pragmatist NEIA 
| I assume you'll have no trouble then quantifying the gap between Obama's policy proposals and the other candidates in the race. What exactly is it? Where is he lacking? All of these slams on his non-specificity are ambiguous themselves. | ||||
     |
|
03-19-2008, 02:44 PM
| #82 | ||||
| Junkie libertarian
| Originally Posted by Thorgrim I wasn't aware he was arguing that. 
| ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:44 PM
| #83 | ||||
| Banned  Progressive Philadelphia, PA
| Originally Posted by TankRizzo I missed you and your porn subscription site
Keep telling yourself that McCain is going to stop the Dems from letting the Bush tax cuts expire  or that you'll get some tax cut under him | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:46 PM
| #84 | ||||
| Junkie libertarian
| Originally Posted by bheld You do realize people can consider everyone else having a gap in their policies as well. You want people to point to "better speeches" when in fact not one person is saying there is a better speech.
Just because people criticize Obama doesn't mean they think another candidate is better. You have been trouncing around this falicy this entire thread. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:47 PM
| #85 | ||||
| Banned by Super *********s  Moderate
| Originally Posted by Thorgrim
I'm not talking about tax cuts, I'm talking about all out tax rape that Hillary or Obama will have to institute to fund their social programs. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:49 PM
| #86 | ||||
| Ignore list is for pussies.  Realist
| Originally Posted by motivez It's RP-itis all over again. Their fanaticism for "BUSH SUCKS, NO GOP, DOWN WITH REPUBLICANS AT ALL COSTS!!
 " blinded RP followers and now it's got the Obamates doing the same thing. They're on such a jihad against anything on the right that they don't care that the choices on the left suck. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:49 PM
| #87 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est  Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| I did a pretty good job of that in the post before last, where he tries to use our schools as a way to prop up his candidacy by playing to the populist idea that this time we'll really do something to make a difference in our kids education, yet fails to even list one something he has an idea about that would change the system for the better. I'm sure Thorgrim could provide examples of Hillary giving specifics about education, but I don't support Hillary and don't particularly feel a need to post something that tries to say she's better than him, or McCain is, or whatever. I haven't decided who I'll vote for in the primary in NC, and as such, my criticism of Obama's lack of specifics in this (and other) speeches (and of course, in the debates, save the last one where he tried a little harder) aren't designed to prop up another candidate, it's merely an observation of what I see as a deficiency in his campaign that will come back to haunt him in November unless he acts to rectify it. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:52 PM
| #88 | ||||
| Banned Progressive Philadelphia, PA
| Originally Posted by TankRizzo I didn't know you made more than $250,000 a year?
I also didn't know you'd convinced the conservative democrats in Republican districts to vote for tax increases on the middle class (BTW there is also a thing called a filibuster, and conservatives, maybe even conservative republicans will hold 41 seats after this eleciton) | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:57 PM
| #89 | ||||
| Policy Wonk Pragmatist NEIA
| Originally Posted by hsmith So why is Obama being held to a higher standard then? Why is the CW that his campaign is all about "hope?"
Let's hear some specific criticisms. I don't see how it's fallacious to note how others can ambiguously criticize other people for being equally vague. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 02:59 PM
| #90 | ||||
| Policy Wonk Pragmatist NEIA
| Originally Posted by motivez All you have to do is go to his website.
Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Education Time looked at education back in January and McCain didn't have more than a paragraph up on his website. Nobody ever talks about how he's light in the britches policy-wise though. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:01 PM
| #91 | ||||
| Banned by Super *********s Moderate
| Originally Posted by Thorgrim
What does this have to do with Obama being a tax hiking, socialized health care wanting gun grabber? | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:01 PM
| #92 | ||||
| Policy Wonk Pragmatist NEIA
| Seriously, you all cannot expect somebody to give a speech by reading a white paper. Go to the websites if you want specifics. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:07 PM
| #93 | ||||
| Banned Progressive Philadelphia, PA
| Originally Posted by TankRizzo He's not going to tax you, or take away your gun...and "socialized healthcare" is going to happen it's just a matter of this president or the next
| ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:08 PM
| #94 | ||||
| ipsa Scientia Potestas est Pragmatist Greensboro, NC
| Originally Posted by bheld You're trying to make it a comparison between candidates, and my criticism of Obama isn't an attempt to compare him to anyone.
And, he needs to tell voters his ideas, not just his hopes and wishes. His concrete plans to make his hopes and wishes come true.. Telling someone to "read the website" because they want 1 specific example of something he thinks he can accomplish as a means of improving our schools is ridiculous. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:17 PM
| #95 | ||||
| Banned by Super *********s Moderate
| Originally Posted by Thorgrim
Well, I want to delay that inevitability for as long as possible. ....and :bow-fucking-rofl: at "he's not going to tax you". | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:22 PM
| #96 | ||||
| For those about to rock...  libertarian Atlanta, GA
| Originally Posted by TankRizzo He promises to reduce taxes for middle-Americans. That certainly gets a big
 But then, he plans to raise taxes elsewhere, which gets a big  Overall it might balance out economically speaking, but balancing doesn't mean improving 
__________________ http://www.corruptapedia.com/ You can call me Aaron Burr the way I drop Hamiltons. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:26 PM
| #97 | ||||
| Policy Wonk Pragmatist NEIA
| Originally Posted by motivez It has to be turned into a comparison because he's being held to a different standard. Just because his speeches are actually effective doesn't mean his policy proposals are any less rigorous.
You still can't be specific and say what it is you really want aside from general complaints about how you need his speeches to start boring people more with details instead of inspiring them. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:48 PM
| #98 | ||||
| Ignore list is for pussies. Realist
| Originally Posted by bheld I have to admit you accomplished something. I'd only heard him speak and I'd never heard a specific. When I'd heard him speak I didn't hear "I will do _______ to make sure ________ and blah blah blah."
So I took your challenge to learn more. I downloaded his Blueprint for Change. I read the whole thing but I'm not going to comment about it all because I don't feel like typing that much. But I will start on his page 4 (adobe pg 8): Shine Light on Washington Lobbying He's going to "create a database" of lobbying reports? How will it be populated? What "reports"? Shine the Light on Federal Contracts, Tax Breaks and Earmarks "...create a “contracts and influence” database that will disclose how much federal contractors spend on lobbying". Another database, filled with stuff like "how well they complete (contracts)." WTF is that? Bring Americans Back into their Government "...requiring his Cabinet officials to have periodic national broadband townhall meetings to discuss issues before their agencies." Fluffy feel-good crap. "...amend executive orders to ensure that communications about regulatory policymaking between persons outside government and all White House staff are disclosed to the public." He can't do this. Free the Executive Branch from Special Interest Influence "...will issue an executive order asking all new hires at the agencies to sign a form affirming that no political appointee offered them the job solely on the basis of political affiliation or contribution." More fluffy feel-good crap. Universal (healthcare) Coverage "Obama will sign a universal health care plan into law by the end of his first term in office. His plan will provide affordable, quality health care coverage for every American." How will he pay for it?!?!?! Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All (bunch of shit)............HOW WILL HE PAY FOR IT??!?!!!/ And my favorite: Lowering (healthcare) Costs by Increasing Competition "Barack Obama will prevent companies from abusing their monopoly power through unjustified price increases. His plan will force insurers to pay out a reasonable share of their premiums for patient care instead of keeping exorbitant amounts for profits and administration. His new National Health Exchange will help increase competition by insurers." Wow. What's reasonable? What's exorbitant? How will he implement this? (I'm guessing it'll be through "a database"  ).So thanks. I was talking about things 2nd and sometimes 3rd hand. Since I read his plan for myself now there's no doubt. He has some neat ideas but they're all pie-in-the-sky feel good shit. At least hillary tells me she's going to steal more of my money to pay for her ideas. Obama tells me he's going to give everyone the moon but won't say how. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:51 PM
| #99 | ||||
| Banned by Super *********s Moderate
| Originally Posted by bheld being held to a different standard because of his speeches?
 Always the victim I guess. Can't say I really get that logic. | ||||
| |
|
03-19-2008, 03:56 PM
| #100 | ||||
| Ignore list is for pussies. Realist
| Originally Posted by bheld It may be that he's held to a higher standard, but if he is it's probably because all we have to go on is what he's saying. mccain has 20+ years of a voting record people can look up if they want. obama has his words, and they amount to "I'm going to give everyone everything they want but not say how and hope they don't notice."
| ||||
| |
