I've never seen this before, thought it was pretty good

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I've always heard the arguement that such a free market system requires properly defined and strictly enforced property rights. If you assume that you are your own property, slavery becomes a violation of property rights.

I am sure people have a wonderful idea of what "their" free market system is...but those are ideologies...they speak of something that does not exist but they want to get to...and libertarians even differ on what a real free market is...but that's besides the point

Capitalism is an objective system that has been in effect for...thousands of years on some scale...2000 years ago Greek traders going all over Europe, sometimes invested in...were no doubt dealing in full fledged capitalism...but to call it a free market is a seperate argument

As such, 1600s slave traders were dealing in full-fledged capitalism

As far as "property rights" that is again an issue of market regulation, which again tilts towards "free-market" "libertarianism"....not capitalism vs communism

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by lew

As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.

Slavery was phased out of numerous countries for various reasons in the 19th Century, including economic reasons.

The most prominent being the abolitionist movement and of governments coming under the realization that property is an inherent right within all of us. There is nothing tyrannical about a government coming to this realization and enforcing those natural rights.


There is, however, something tyrannical about a government going to war against its own citizens for mercantilistic reasons and for increasing the power of the centralized stated, all while then claiming it was all about slavery.

The government stuck it's nose in and regulated...that deals with basically all of your post...except for one line that you still don't understand how 1600s slave traders, especially i gave, were being successful capitalists

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

The government stuck it's nose in and regulated...that deals with basically all of your post...except for one line that you still don't understand how 1600s slave traders, especially i gave, were being successful capitalists

And there is nothing wrong with government sticking its nose in....when it regards to property rights.


Too bad the Civil War was nothing about that.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I am sure people have a wonderful idea of what "their" free market system is...but those are ideologies...they speak of something that does not exist but they want to get to...and libertarians even differ on what a real free market is...but that's besides the point

Capitalism is an objective system that has been in effect for...thousands of years on some scale...2000 years ago Greek traders going all over Europe, sometimes invested in...were no doubt dealing in full fledged capitalism...but to call it a free market is a seperate argument

As such, 1600s slave traders were dealing in full-fledged capitalism

As far as "property rights" that is again an issue of market regulation, which again tilts towards "free-market" "libertarianism"....not capitalism vs communism

.....and nothing you describe cannot be said of any other economic / political system.


Ask a hundred different people their definitions of capitalism, communism, fascism, democracy, anarchy, etc and you'll get a million different answers.

You like to act like that "libertarianism" is some theory that has never been tested....but the same can be said of any other theory, in regards to No True Scotsman. ie Communist Russia wasn't "real" communism, "real" communism would be utopia. So, your point can be applied to anything. Congrats.

[Thorgrim]

You think there is no difference between the free-market libertarian ideology they write in the 2008 platform, and capitalism as it's been practiced and traded...with guidelines...for centuries?

Again, the example I gave were inherent elements in an example of capitalism

Communism didn't and never did revolve around Stalinism, Fascism never revolved around anti-semiticism, anarchy did not revolve around murder

Capitalists in the 1600s were following every single guideline given to them through hundreds if not thousands of years of practice, they were central tenents...if one were to suggest that suddenly in 1600 any "true capitalist" should have gone "well I think in the future, there will be these defined property rights that include that any of our species can not be treated as property...and we are violating what i will now call a higher humanitarian law, which if we violate will us criminals under a yet to be constructed international court" would be asinine to the extreme...even saying a fraction of that would be ridiculous

[kombayn]

I am actually for private fire-fighting companies, hospitals, but not police. Private Police enforcements would be so corrupt, it would be ridiculous. The police need to be state-ran, but for Firefighters, why do they need to be ran by government?

[Thorgrim]

the police are already corrupt

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by kombayn

I am actually for private fire-fighting companies, hospitals, but not police. Private Police enforcements would be so corrupt, it would be ridiculous. The police need to be state-ran, but for Firefighters, why do they need to be ran by government?

I don't think it is outside of libertarianism to understand there are many proper roles of government even if they are not perfect. What corrupts "some" police? Money and influence of higher authority, Union protectionism of Bad Cops, and "Good Old Boy Network" thinking. If you had private cops you would still need a public agency to have oversight over everything they do, so it might as well be total public service. And it is not an unreasonable notion to pay for basic public services that are a direct benefit to an entire community. Police, Fire, and Sanitation are not taking from Peter to give to Paul type rationalization of of what public service should be.


As for Firefighting it is a type of community insurance. You don't want your neighbor to hesitate in calling just because he might have a big bill to pay! But then people with larger needs and bigger pockets have their own fire fighters, like oil companies. You think they just call 911 at a refinery?

Hell NO!

They have their own people on the spot.