AT&T CEO suggests that our education system has failed

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by Scrum

His problem isn't a lack of skilled workers, it's a lack of skilled workers that will work as cheap as the labor in India.

right, and because they aren't finding people in the US as easily as over in India, he's bitching about it, saying it's because he can't find workers here, to give himself an excuse to go back to outsourcing.

i have a friend living in Milford CT. She's from Germany and is an engineer and has a work visa. she can't work here unless there's a position that can't be filled with a US national first, so she only has this job because there wasn't someone similarly available to work it instead.

I imagine its the same deal over there. he's giving himself an excuse to go back to outsourcing, plain and simple.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't know if that is a problem with education so much as it is with the position itself. If you are looking for an experienced person for a highly specialized sort of position, there won't be alot of them out there. Alot of companies don't want to train anyone these days. They want someone that they can hire who will just hit the ground running. If everyone is looking for the same thing, and no one will spend the money to train anyone, there will obviously be a shortage of workers for that kind of position. I know for my company that they don't teach what we do in any school. Sure you might get the basic tools you need but our business is unique, as are many successful US businesses. If you don't want to train someone, it's going to be harder to find a fit.

I've seen this at every company I've been at now - even for inexperienced positions - and Microsoft and AT&T both complain of it. Are you suggesting that the problem doesn't exist?

I do admit that my current company has extremely high standards which will make it more difficult to begin with, although they also offer compensation commensurate with those standards.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Linzyhop

right, and because they aren't finding people in the US as easily as over in India, he's bitching about it, saying it's because he can't find workers here, to give himself an excuse to go back to outsourcing.

i have a friend living in Milford CT. She's from Germany and is an engineer and has a work visa. she can't work here unless there's a position that can't be filled with a US national first, so she only has this job because there wasn't someone similarly available to work it instead.

I imagine its the same deal over there. he's giving himself an excuse to go back to outsourcing, plain and simple.

Wait, you just said that your friend is working here because they couldn't find a US national to fill the position

Doesn't that support the argument that the AT&T CEO made?

[TankRizzo]

IMO, we have 2 things that have heavily burdened our educational system.

1) The erosion of personal responsibility.
2) Lack of respect for others.

No amount of money or re-tooling is going to fix these things as they are problems that have manifested themselves in children before they're even school age. Parents have put their children on a pedestal and defend them tooth and nail; "my kid wouldn't do that', "Johnny is smart, he can't get a D", etc. and so forth. We've undermined the authority of teachers.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by thewise1

I've seen this at every company I've been at now - even for inexperienced positions - and Microsoft and AT&T both complain of it. Are you suggesting that the problem doesn't exist?

I do admit that my current company has extremely high standards which will make it more difficult to begin with, although they also offer compensation commensurate with those standards.

We do have education problems in this country. No question about that. But I would not go so far as to say that India has a better education system than we do. India is where AT&T is sending these jobs. It's not because of skilled workers, it's because of wages. People in India will work for a lower wage. Customer Service does not require a highly skilled person, you don't even need a college degree, you just need to be able to learn thier procedures. IF AT&T was complaining about not being able to find engineers and senior developers then OK maybe we don't have enough skilled workers... but they are looking for unskilled workers who will work for relatively low wages in an undesireable position. I disagree with AT&T's position that the reason they can't find people is poor education in this country. It's got more to do with standard of living and comparatively low wages than anything else.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So what could be done to turn this around?

Hold on, let's look at the problem.

SAN ANTONIO, Texas (Reuters) - The head of the top U.S. phone company AT&T Inc (T.N) said on Wednesday it was having trouble finding enough skilled workers to fill all the 5,000 customer service jobs it promised to return to the United States from India.

He's paying someone in india 1/5th of what he'll pay a person in the US to do a shitty customer service job. He doesn't WANT to bring the jobs back. Is it any surprise he's going to find a reason why he can't/shouldn't/won't??

[7960]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

IMO, we have 2 things that have heavily burdened our educational system.

1) The erosion of personal responsibility.
2) Lack of respect for others.

No amount of money or re-tooling is going to fix these things as they are problems that have manifested themselves in children before they're even school age. Parents have put their children on a pedestal and defend them tooth and nail; "my kid wouldn't do that', "Johnny is smart, he can't get a D", etc. and so forth. We've undermined the authority of teachers.

If you said this near me in a bar I'd make sure you drank for free.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

IMO, we have 2 things that have heavily burdened our educational system.

1) The erosion of personal responsibility.
2) Lack of respect for others.

No amount of money or re-tooling is going to fix these things as they are problems that have manifested themselves in children before they're even school age. Parents have put their children on a pedestal and defend them tooth and nail; "my kid wouldn't do that', "Johnny is smart, he can't get a D", etc. and so forth. We've undermined the authority of teachers.

I can't disagree with this

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Wait, you just said that your friend is working here because they couldn't find a US national to fill the position

Doesn't that support the argument that the AT&T CEO made?

No.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

Hold on, let's look at the problem.




He's paying someone in india 1/5th of what he'll pay a person in the US to do a shitty customer service job. He doesn't WANT to bring the jobs back. Is it any surprise he's going to find a reason why he can't/shouldn't/won't??

He's not the only one reporting this problem, though.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by thewise1

He's not the only one reporting this problem, though.

It's not an education problem. It's a sympton of the economic disparity that exists between the US and other countries like India.

[Linzyhop]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Wait, you just said that your friend is working here because they couldn't find a US national to fill the position

Doesn't that support the argument that the AT&T CEO made?

no. she's a civil engineer with a masters. that's the distinction. customer service positions pay $20K-35K (if you're lucky) and you can't live on that. well decently anyway.

the ceo is just looking for an excuse to go back abroad. my friend is HERE, working in the states. it's not like she's in germany and having work outsourced to her there.

maybe i didn't use the right metaphor. my point is still the same.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

He's not the only one reporting this problem, though.

Other CEOs are saying they can't find people in the US as educated as people in india who are also willing to work for the same wage as their indian counterparts?

I'm not surprised.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Well, first we'd need to define the specific goal. If you don't know what you're trying to solve, you're not going to be successful solving it.

I would think a good goal that would solve this problem at a deeper level would be to create a generation of entrepreneurial individuals who do not have a sense of entitlement, are hard working, can think critically, and are skilled at English, mathematics, history, and physical sciences out of high school. That's not to say only those subjects, however.

Do you think that goal covers it? Once we've got a goal we can discuss ways to get there without necessarily falling back on the tired arguments of centralize/decentralize - we can just propose solutions to the problem instead.

I'm pretty sure the goal of school itself is self-evident. Equip students with the skills they need to be productive citizens. Half of what you say is more parenting and mentoring than education. If that's what you want you're going to have to broaden the scope of the discussion.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Well let me be the contrarian here and say that if they are having a hard time finding workers, perhaps they should offer more money. During the dot com bubble, these tech people were being pumped out of colleges and universities like crazy. I was one of them. At the time, we were hearing stories about people being offered signing bonuses right out of college. There was no shortage of technically skilled workers. I would even argue that the bubble resulted in an over abundance of "skilled" workers in a particular field. I am sure that this resulted in fewer people chosing other professions.
Our colleges and universities are still some of the best in the world. Our lower levels of education might not be that great but no one is "skilled" untill they either go to a trade school after k-12 or some sort of college or university. If you graduate with a degree from any of the top tier schools, you should be a desireable worker in whatever field you have chosen. If AT&T or Microsoft or whoever, is having trouble finding skilled workers, they should offer more money for those positions to encourage more people to pursue them. They can't just sit there and complain about not enough skilled workers and expect that people will suddenly decide to become skilled. THat's the free market my friend. If you can't find enough workers, offer more money for those positions.


Let me also add that customer service is a shitty position to have to work. You are mostly dealing with people who have problems and that are angry. If you take a job in CS, your plan is usually to leave that position as soon as you are able. So what these CEO's are actually saying is that they are having trouble finding workers for customer service at the salaries they are offering. I bet if you offered 45k a year instead of 30k a year, you would have a greater number of applications and more skilled workers applying for those positions.

And yet I still can't find someone to hire me for the summer

[6SpeedTA95]

If this has already been mentioned I'm sorry, but I have to respond to this thread. Several things come to mind...

1) Even though we're in a recession or at least an economic slowdown unemployment is still very low. Skilled labor and educated labor its very low and of those who get laid off 93% of them find a job within 6 weeks time. Labor is in short supply. That means AT&T needs to up the pay or benefits to attract workers.

2) Specifically to the problem of education. The system has abandoned the principles of personal responsibility and the responsibility of the parents to be involved in their childrens education. The result is a child can not fail a class for fear of the school being sued.

3) We can not give grades based on ability because we might offend or damage a child and their ability to function. The basic principle of competition has also been removed from our schools and its even trickeling into school athletic programs, especially at the lower levels (pre high school).

4) Teachers unions and teachers pay are also contributing to our problems. The unions prevent teachers especially tenured teachers from being fired for poor performance. They get the same raises the great teachers get and have all the same benefits so they wont leave. The schools can't make them leave. On top of that the good teachers are under paid on the order of 30 or 35% which means many of them will leave for the private sector where they can actually make a respectable salary and live a true middle class life.

5) thats all I have time for at the moment.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Well let me be the contrarian here and say that if they are having a hard time finding workers, perhaps they should offer more money.

Why should they offer more money when they can get 5 people over there for the price of one over here?

[7960]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

2) Specifically to the problem of education. The system has abandoned the principles of personal responsibility and the responsibility of the parents to be involved in their childrens education.

That's true.

The result is a child can not fail a class for fear of the school being sued.

That's false.

3) We can not give grades based on ability because we might offend or damage a child and their ability to function.

Again, false.

[WickedLou9]