AT&T CEO suggests that our education system has failed - Page 4

bheld · 03-27-2008, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Then how do you judge how well a person is doing compared with others?

First off you need to tell me why you need to know how well a person is doing compared to others.

bheld · 03-27-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

Of course there are those. But the A and B students too generally complete tasks assigned to them more effectively than C or D students, wouldn't you agree?

Who knows? That's the problem with using grades to make hiring decisions.

7960 · 03-27-2008, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

You say its false, a friend of mine was a teacher for three years and he was told by the school board to amend a child's grade because the parents were threatening a lawsuit. It was amend the grade or lose your job. He amended the grade and quit a few months later.

I was asked to do it and said no. I completely understand (understood) why it happens. A piece of shit kid fails one class and that means he's being held back, costing the district another $7k, costing the school time and effort for another year, costing the teachers a seat in their classroom.........it's a business decision to ask. It's a decent teacher's responsibility to say no.

When push came to shove, I'm sorry your friend doesn't have the sack to stand up for the ideals he was supposed to believe in and dedicated his career to.

Also, the new cirriculum being taught in elementry school through high school seems to downplay competive edge necessary in today's society. Teachers here are constantly going through sensitivity training on how to be receptive to kids who do not perform as well and why its ok to give them grades they dont necessarily deserve. So I disagree, its not false, it happens a lot at least around here.

Remind me not to live there.

Going through sensitivity training is not bad. Downplaying competitiveness between students is not bad. I never gave someone a grade he didn't earn and no teacher with any level of self respect ever should.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

If you don't understand the difference between these two questions you'll never understand my point:

"What do I have to do to understand the concepts?"

"What do I have to do to get an A?"

Thats a good point there's a big difference between getting an A and understanding the concepts.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I was asked to do it and said no. I completely understand (understood) why it happens. A piece of shit kid fails one class and that means he's being held back, costing the district another $7k, costing the school time and effort for another year, costing the teachers a seat in their classroom.........it's a business decision to ask. It's a decent teacher's responsibility to say no.

When push came to shove, I'm sorry your friend doesn't have the sack to stand up for the ideals he was supposed to believe in and dedicated his career to.

Remind me not to live there.

Going through sensitivity training is not bad. Downplaying competitiveness between students is not bad. I never gave someone a grade he didn't earn and no teacher with any level of self respect ever should.

I think you definately fall into the good teacher category though.

bheld · 03-27-2008, 04:11 PM

Going back to the original post, this dialogue is sort of affirming why you need schools to be on the same page. If one district grades kids on effort and another grades kids on meeting arbitrary performance benchmarks at arbitrary times grades are meaningless.

RockPusher · 03-27-2008, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Scrum

His problem isn't a lack of skilled workers, it's a lack of skilled workers that will work as cheap as the labor in India.

Maybe we are all looking at this wrong. Perhaps we should outsource our students.... especially since we outsourced most of the jobs the education we provide is intended for.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by RockPusher

Maybe we are all looking at this wrong. Perhaps we should outsource our students.... especially since we outsourced most of the jobs the education we provide is intended for.

We outsourced the jobs our education was intended for? Is that why there's a shortage of college educated labor? The average starting salary for those with a college degree is expected to be 41,000 dollars this may. Thats a good figure and students will be averaging 2.7 job offers each.

WickedLou9 · 03-27-2008, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

We outsourced the jobs our education was intended for? Is that why there's a shortage of college educated labor? The average starting salary for those with a college degree is expected to be 41,000 dollars this may. Thats a good figure and students will be averaging 2.7 job offers each.

Thats because we only outsource jobs that don't require education. Can you speak english and read from a script? Are you willing to work for 5 dollars a day? No? OK we'll send that job to India.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Thats because we only outsource jobs that don't require education. Can you speak english and read from a script? Are you willing to work for 5 dollars a day? No? OK we'll send that job to India.

I know, thats my point. Our education system is designed to give us a skillset we can build on forever, either in the workplace or in college or in technical school but primary education today is a joke. Jobs that require education have not been outsourced.

nbiggershaft · 03-27-2008, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

First off you need to tell me why you need to know how well a person is doing compared to others.

College/Jobs require it

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

College/Jobs require it

That and you have to have a benchmark performance standard. Something to shoot for or improve upon. If we all wandered through life with no feedback as to how we are doing compared with others we'd never get anywwhere or we'd waste time and energy trying to improve the wrong aspects of our lives.

bheld · 03-27-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

That and you have to have a benchmark performance standard. Something to shoot for or improve upon. If we all wandered through life with no feedback as to how we are doing compared with others we'd never get anywwhere or we'd waste time and energy trying to improve the wrong aspects of our lives.

You don't need to be compared to other students to do that.

A_C_E · 03-27-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The basic principle of competition has also been removed from our schools and its even trickeling into school athletic programs

Competition in schools (especially higher ed) is NOT a good thing.

Phantom · 03-27-2008, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Competition in schools (especially higher ed) is NOT a good thing.

care to share why you hold this opinion?

A_C_E · 03-27-2008, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

care to share why you hold this opinion?

Ever hear of Hopkinsing?

If you want to breed students who are willing to lie, cheat, steal, and deliberately screw other people over, then go ahead, emphasize competition. But if you've ever been in an environment like that, you'd wish there was even LESS competition.

I happen to loathe the fact that I can get a 93 out of 100 on a test and still get a B-.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by bheld

You don't need to be compared to other students to do that.

Then how do you know if you'll make it in society? You have no clue if you're average, below average or above average. Without competing or comparing with others you're blind.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Competition in schools (especially higher ed) is NOT a good thing.

then how do you determine who the better students are? who has a better grasp of the concepts and who should get the better jobs?

A_C_E · 03-27-2008, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

then how do you determine who the better students are? who has a better grasp of the concepts and who should get the better jobs?

You've never been in a really competitive scholastic environment, have you

edit: Step 1 - Grade on performance, NOT ON A CURVE.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-27-2008, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by A_C_E

You've never been in a really competitive scholastic environment, have you

edit: Step 1 - Grade on performance, NOT ON A CURVE.

Uhhh who's talking about grading on performance vs curve? Grading on performance is best but thats still competition and comparison against other students. Which proves my point....what are you saying?