Endangered species-the middle class

Dispatcher · 03-31-2008, 01:04 AM

The middle class will disappear in a few decades, thanks to the global economy, free trade, and outsourcing. The fact is, if you don't have a college degree nowdays, you are basically screwed. Bush talks about all the new jobs being created...what he doesn't say is that these jobs are at Wal-mart, Home Depot, 7-11 stores, grocery stores, and gas stations. And he doesn't say that these job typically pay $8-$10 an hour. And forget about benefits....unless you call paying 3/4 of your health insurance a benefit.
Just like the lyrics of a Robin Trower song, "winners get the honey, losers sing the blues". In today's world, the losers are the middle class and the working poor.
Such was not always the case. Before the late 70s, a person could get a manufacturing job right out high school and made a decent living at it.
Sure, it wasn't all gravy....a new TV set (made in America) cost so much that people called the TV repair man. (yes, there were actually TV repairmen and they made house calls).
People saved money back then because they HAD the money to save, and because there wasn't so much easy credit, so you HAD to save for that new washing machine.
Back then, the middle class was alive and well. If you were willing to work hard you could get a piece of the American dream.
Now, I can hear people saying.."that was then and this is now and we can't go backwards".
But is having American jobs that pay a decent wage going backwards.....or is it the way forward? Would you balk at paying double for that CD player if you knew that your son or daughter who can't afford college or doesn't have the grades to get into college could still find a decent job and not be poor?
If you want to see what the U.S. will look like in 50 years if things don't change, just look at Mexico now. But what border will WE be sneaking across?

7960 · 03-31-2008, 12:24 PM

Funny how we talk about the middle class hurting so badly, but then I look around and in my middle-class/working-class town I see new cars and plasma TVs flying off the shelves and Wii/xbox/etc in every friend's house.

If the middle class is hurting it's because they're living on debt. They're trying to keep up with..............who, exactly? They're living like they make $200k when they only make $50k combined. Stupidity, greed, lack of common sense, ego, and a sense of entitlement got the middle class in this situation. The shitty thing is it's going to cause everyone some pain for a while.

David Octavius · 03-31-2008, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Funny how we talk about the middle class hurting so badly, but then I look around and in my middle-class/working-class town I see new cars and plasma TVs flying off the shelves and Wii/xbox/etc in every friend's house.

If the middle class is hurting it's because they're living on debt. They're trying to keep up with..............who, exactly? They're living like they make $200k when they only make $50k combined. Stupidity, greed, lack of common sense, ego, and a sense of entitlement got the middle class in this situation. The shitty thing is it's going to cause everyone some pain for a while.

But its also greedy companies that dupe consumers with (seemingly) generous credit terms, a society that teaches us that we are nothing if we don't have a lot of "stuff" and the end of family (people living and staying alone, no more extended families living together and of course more divorces and single mom/dads)

7960 · 03-31-2008, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by David Octavius

But its also greedy companies..........

No. No bank every grabbed someone off the street and dragged him in kicking and screaming to sign papers on a loan.

a society that teaches us that we are nothing if we don't have a lot of "stuff"

IMO that's a cop out.

and the end of family (people living and staying alone, no more extended families living together and of course more divorces and single mom/dads)

There's no reason that people living alone and divorced people should leave beyond their means.

David Octavius · 03-31-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

No. No bank every grabbed someone off the street and dragged him in kicking and screaming to sign papers on a loan.

IMO that's a cop out.

There's no reason that people living alone and divorced people should leave beyond their means.

Once again your completely wrong on all accounts but I already know that you are unable/unwillingly to look at the big picture or see multiple causes beyond just yours or even see how one thing can affect another, so its fruitless and tiering for me to argue with you - so I'll just leave it as, I disagree

7960 · 03-31-2008, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Once again your completely wrong on all accounts but I already know that you are unable/unwillingly to look at the big picture or see multiple causes beyond just yours or even see how one thing can affect another, so its fruitless and tiering for me to argue with you - so I'll just leave it as, I disagree

tiring

I'm wrong because I expect people to live within their means and understand the paperwork they're signing.

Oh, I'm quite the asshole!

Phantom · 03-31-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

If you want to see what the U.S. will look like in 50 years if things don't change, just look at Mexico now. B

This makes complete sense, because before the recent 50 or so years of American prosperity there was the period of Mexican prosperity, and we are making the same mistakes the Mexicans made.

David Octavius · 03-31-2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Oh, I'm quite the asshole!

Hey something we agree on!

Maybe your blind? Because in my first post on the thread I used the smiley:

Which means I agree with your post, the rest of my post was supposed to be in ADDITION to what you said, but of course you ignored that part

7960 · 03-31-2008, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by David Octavius

Hey something we agree on!

Maybe your blind? Because in my first post on the thread I used the smiley:

Which means I agree with your post, the rest of my post was supposed to be in ADDITION to what you said, but of course you ignored that part

you're

Because everything after "but" is a cop out.

David Octavius · 03-31-2008, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

you're

Because everything after "but" is a cop out.

"but it's also" means in addition to and not just what came before that phrase

It's not a cop out, it's factors but in the end its up to the person to take responsibility for their own actions

A_C_E · 03-31-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

tiring

I'm wrong because I expect people to live within their means and understand the paperwork they're signing.

Oh, I'm quite the asshole!

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you do love to downplay corporate greed.

Most companies WILL manipulate customers/clients to make extra money. They will bend and/or break the established rules to increase profits. This is a fact.

Everyone needs to be honest in negotiations--the corporations included. Just because you didn't notice that they tricked you doesn't make it completely your fault. "Fool me once, shame on you."

7960 · 03-31-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by A_C_E

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you do love to downplay corporate greed.

Most companies WILL manipulate customers/clients to make extra money. They will bend and/or break the established rules to increase profits. This is a fact.

But they can't do it without the person's permission.

Man, I'm going back 10 years.... a friend bought a mitsubishi eclipse at a "zero down, zero percent finance" sale. We told him there's a catch and to ask a bunch of questions. He bought the car, and made his payments, all that shit. One of his questions had to do with how long the interest free thing was and they said 2 years. He assumed he'd start paying interest at that 25th month point but really he got whacked with interest going all the way back to the purchase date. He complained that he asked a bunch of questions and they should have told him. Sure they should have told him...it was shitty not to. But did he read the contract? No. Was it clearly spelled out right in the contract? Yes. Was it their fault or his that he didn't know? His.

I've been saying I brought a lawyer to my closing. I ended up having a question a few weeks after the papers were signed. I called the mortgage company and asked if I could make bi-monthly payments. They said sure so I started sending 2 checks/month. When I didn't see any change at all in my payment schedule I called back. Turns out they *took* the check but their policy was to not *post* the payment until the due date so on the due date they put both checks in rather than doing them as they received them. Whose fault was that? Mine.

Everyone needs to be honest in negotiations--the corporations included. Just because you didn't notice that they tricked you doesn't make it completely your fault. "Fool me once, shame on you."

That would be fantastic. But the reality is everyone needs to protect himself.

A_C_E · 03-31-2008, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

But they can't do it without the person's permission.

That would be fantastic. But the reality is everyone needs to protect himself.

You seem to be missing the point. The idea behind a good-faith negotiation is that it is a GOOD FAITH NEGOTIATION. Meaning your opponent isn't trying to fool you into signing something you don't mean to. If I ask you a question, and you lie to me, it doesn't matter if I sign the contract. You are no longer negotiating in good faith and I can void the agreement.

I don't understand what your hard-on is for 100% personal responsibility. If I am giving you a loan, or we're collectively bargaining over wages, or any other contractually-based negotiation, and I trick you into signing something you don't mean to sign, it's MY fault. NOT yours.

I will not buy the argument that if someone tricks me, it's my fault that I didn't realize it. That would authorize all kinds of manipulative behavior that is fundamentally improper.

7960 · 03-31-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by A_C_E

You seem to be missing the point. The idea behind a good-faith negotiation is that it is a GOOD FAITH NEGOTIATION. Meaning your opponent isn't trying to fool you into signing something you don't mean to. If I ask you a question, and you lie to me, it doesn't matter if I sign the contract. You are no longer negotiating in good faith and I can void the agreement.

And you seem to be missing the point.

Who says the lender lied? If you don't ask every question then you're not going get all the answers. The lender isn't going to sit there for 7 hours going page by page with you. That's why he gave you a copy to read and have someone go over with you. If you don't understand the papers you're signing then it's all on you.

I don't understand what your hard-on is for 100% personal responsibility. If I am giving you a loan, or we're collectively bargaining over wages, or any other contractually-based negotiation, and I trick you into signing something you don't mean to sign, it's MY fault. NOT yours.

My hard on for it is because in order for you to trick me I had to not read what I was signing. How is it your fault if I didn't read it before agreeing to it?

I will not buy the argument that if someone tricks me, it's my fault that I didn't realize it. That would authorize all kinds of manipulative behavior that is fundamentally improper.

And I wont' buy that anything I do can be blamed on someone else.

RockPusher · 03-31-2008, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Funny how we talk about the middle class hurting so badly, but then I look around and in my middle-class/working-class town I see new cars and plasma TVs flying off the shelves and Wii/xbox/etc in every friend's house.

If the middle class is hurting it's because they're living on debt.

America is programmed to think in terms of debt.

Our youth are taught Newspeak where buying with debt equates to 'credit' purchases.

Credit Card News: High School Student Credit Cards: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Part 1 of a 2-part series)

The stats regarding high school card usage may surprise some. According to the JumpStart Coalition for Personal Financial Literacy, a nonprofit educational organization, nearly a third of high school seniors reported having a credit card of their own or one co-signed by a parent. Also, according to surveys conducted by nationally recognized credit expert Dr. Robert Manning, the number of incoming college freshmen with credit cards tripled between 1999 and 2002.

Dr. Manning is the Director of the Center for Consumer Financial Services at Rochester Institute of Technology. He is also author of Credit Card Nation and has testified before congressional hearings as a consumer advocate on issues related to credit and credit cards.

In a phone conversation, Dr. Manning offered some very revealing and even startling points.

"A credit card can be issued before the age of 18. A creditor simply cannot force a minor to pay the debt.

Approximately 1/3 and possibly as much of 40% of all High School Seniors AND Juniors have a credit card today. Possession of a credit card has been a simple migration from older brothers and sisters in college to younger siblings in high school and the advertiser naturally follows this migration.

6SpeedTA95 · 03-31-2008, 08:27 PM

People have been griping about the middle class disappearing for decades. Fact is the middle class has gotten stronger over the past 40 years, outsourcing and all the middle class continues to thrive.

bheld · 04-01-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Funny how we talk about the middle class hurting so badly, but then I look around and in my middle-class/working-class town I see new cars and plasma TVs flying off the shelves and Wii/xbox/etc in every friend's house.

If the middle class is hurting it's because they're living on debt. They're trying to keep up with..............who, exactly? They're living like they make $200k when they only make $50k combined. Stupidity, greed, lack of common sense, ego, and a sense of entitlement got the middle class in this situation. The shitty thing is it's going to cause everyone some pain for a while.

That's sort of the point. These people that should be middle class can't afford it anymore.

bheld · 04-01-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

People have been griping about the middle class disappearing for decades. Fact is the middle class has gotten stronger over the past 40 years, outsourcing and all the middle class continues to thrive.

Wow, based on what data?

Rouger2 · 04-01-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

But they can't do it without the person's permission.

Man, I'm going back 10 years.... a friend bought a mitsubishi eclipse at a "zero down, zero percent finance" sale. We told him there's a catch and to ask a bunch of questions. He bought the car, and made his payments, all that shit. One of his questions had to do with how long the interest free thing was and they said 2 years. He assumed he'd start paying interest at that 25th month point but really he got whacked with interest going all the way back to the purchase date. He complained that he asked a bunch of questions and they should have told him. Sure they should have told him...it was shitty not to. But did he read the contract? No. Was it clearly spelled out right in the contract? Yes. Was it their fault or his that he didn't know? His.

I've been saying I brought a lawyer to my closing. I ended up having a question a few weeks after the papers were signed. I called the mortgage company and asked if I could make bi-monthly payments. They said sure so I started sending 2 checks/month. When I didn't see any change at all in my payment schedule I called back. Turns out they *took* the check but their policy was to not *post* the payment until the due date so on the due date they put both checks in rather than doing them as they received them. Whose fault was that? Mine.

That would be fantastic. But the reality is everyone needs to protect himself.

Yea we got winners and lo