Could a Judge Save the World from a Black Hole?

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by NY TIMES

Asking a Judge to Save the World, and Maybe a Whole Lot More

By DENNIS OVERBYE
More fighting in Iraq. Somalia in chaos. People in this country can’t afford their mortgages and in some places now they can’t even afford rice.
None of this nor the rest of the grimness on the front page today will matter a bit, though, if two men pursuing a lawsuit in federal court in Hawaii turn out to be right. They think a giant particle accelerator that will begin smashing protons together outside Geneva this summer might produce a black hole or something else that will spell the end of the Earth — and maybe the universe.
Scientists say that is very unlikely — though they have done some checking just to make sure.
The world’s physicists have spent 14 years and $8 billion building the Large Hadron Collider, in which the colliding protons will recreate energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Researchers will sift the debris from these primordial recreations for clues to the nature of mass and new forces and symmetries of nature.
But Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho contend that scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, have played down the chances that the collider could produce, among other horrors, a tiny black hole, which, they say, could eat the Earth. Or it could spit out something called a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of something called “strange matter.” Their suit also says CERN has failed to provide an environmental impact statement as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.
Although it sounds bizarre, the case touches on a serious issue that has bothered scholars and scientists in recent years — namely how to estimate the risk of new groundbreaking experiments and who gets to decide whether or not to go ahead.
The lawsuit, filed March 21 in Federal District Court, in Honolulu, seeks a temporary restraining order prohibiting CERN from proceeding with the accelerator until it has produced a safety report and an environmental assessment. It names the federal Department of Energy, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as defendants.
According to a spokesman for the Justice Department, which is representing the Department of Energy, a scheduling meeting has been set for June 16.
Why should CERN, an organization of European nations based in Switzerland, even show up in a Hawaiian courtroom?
In an interview, Mr. Wagner said, “I don’t know if they’re going to show up.” CERN would have to voluntarily submit to the court’s jurisdiction, he said, adding that he and Mr. Sancho could have sued in France or Switzerland, but to save expenses they had added CERN to the docket here. He claimed that a restraining order on Fermilab and the Energy Department, which helps to supply and maintain the accelerator’s massive superconducting magnets, would shut down the project anyway.
James Gillies, head of communications at CERN, said the laboratory as of yet had no comment on the suit. “It’s hard to see how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe,” Mr. Gillies said.
“There is nothing new to suggest that the L.H.C. is unsafe,” he said, adding that its safety had been confirmed by two reports, with a third on the way, and would be the subject of a discussion during an open house at the lab on April 6.
“Scientifically, we’re not hiding away,” he said.
But Mr. Wagner is not mollified. “They’ve got a lot of propaganda saying it’s safe,” he said in an interview, “but basically it’s propaganda.”
In an e-mail message, Mr. Wagner called the CERN safety review “fundamentally flawed” and said it had been initiated too late. The review process violates the European Commission’s standards for adhering to the “Precautionary Principle,” he wrote, “and has not been done by ‘arms length’ scientists.”
Physicists in and out of CERN say a variety of studies, including an official CERN report in 2003, have concluded there is no problem. But just to be sure, last year the anonymous Safety Assessment Group was set up to do the review again.
“The possibility that a black hole eats up the Earth is too serious a threat to leave it as a matter of argument among crackpots,” said Michelangelo Mangano, a CERN theorist who said he was part of the group. The others prefer to remain anonymous, Mr. Mangano said, for various reasons. Their report was due in January.
This is not the first time around for Mr. Wagner. He filed similar suits in 1999 and 2000 to prevent the Brookhaven National Laboratory from operating the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider. That suit was dismissed in 2001. The collider, which smashes together gold ions in the hopes of creating what is called a “quark-gluon plasma,” has been operating without incident since 2000.
Mr. Wagner, who lives on the Big Island of Hawaii, studied physics and did cosmic ray research at the University of California, Berkeley, and received a doctorate in law from what is now known as the University of Northern California in Sacramento. He subsequently worked as a radiation safety officer for the Veterans Administration.
Mr. Sancho, who describes himself as an author and researcher on time theory, lives in Spain, probably in Barcelona, Mr. Wagner said.
Doomsday fears have a long, if not distinguished, pedigree in the history of physics. At Los Alamos before the first nuclear bomb was tested, Emil Konopinski was given the job of calculating whether or not the explosion would set the atmosphere on fire.
The Large Hadron Collider is designed to fire up protons to energies of seven trillion electron volts before banging them together. Nothing, indeed, will happen in the CERN collider that does not happen 100,000 times a day from cosmic rays in the atmosphere, said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton.
What is different, physicists admit, is that the fragments from cosmic rays will go shooting harmlessly through the Earth at nearly the speed of light, but anything created when the beams meet head-on in the collider will be born at rest relative to the laboratory and so will stick around and thus could create havoc.
The new worries are about black holes, which, according to some variants of string theory, could appear at the collider. That possibility, though a long shot, has been widely ballyhooed in many papers and popular articles in the last few years, but would they be dangerous?
According to a paper by the cosmologist Stephen Hawking in 1974, they would rapidly evaporate in a poof of radiation and elementary particles, and thus pose no threat. No one, though, has seen a black hole evaporate.
As a result, Mr. Wagner and Mr. Sancho contend in their complaint, black holes could really be stable, and a micro black hole created by the collider could grow, eventually swallowing the Earth.
But William Unruh, of the University of British Columbia, whose paper exploring the limits of Dr. Hawking’s radiation process was referenced on Mr. Wagner’s Web site, said they had missed his point. “Maybe physics really is so weird as to not have black holes evaporate,” he said. “But it would really, really have to be weird.”
Lisa Randall, a Harvard physicist whose work helped fuel the speculation about black holes at the collider, pointed out in a paper last year that black holes would probably not be produced at the collider after all, although other effects of so-called quantum gravity might appear.
As part of the safety assessment report, Dr. Mangano and Steve Giddings of the University of California, Santa Barbara, have been working intensely for the last few months on a paper exploring all the possibilities of these fearsome black holes. They think there are no problems but are reluctant to talk about their findings until they have been peer reviewed, Dr. Mangano said.
Dr. Arkani-Hamed said concerning worries about the death of the Earth or universe, “Neither has any merit.” He pointed out that because of the dice-throwing nature of quantum physics, there was some probability of almost anything happening. There is some minuscule probability, he said, “the Large Hadron Collider might make dragons that might eat us up.”

This was just an entertaining read to share. I guess the concern is that they might create a black hole that would swallow the world. I know so little about this stuff so I am like a child dreaming of space flight.

Can anyone explain a little better what's going on here?

[Scrum]

I just watched the episode of The Universe again that talks about this very issue.


YouTube - The Universe- Cosmic Holes part 1

[WickedLou9]

If I remember right from one of Hawkings books, scientists have already created something like this before but the things almost istantly dissapear? Doesn't a black hole need to start out as a star with a mass of something like 6 or 7 of our suns to be self sustaining?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

If I remember right from one of Hawkings books, scientists have already created something like this before but the things almost istantly dissapear? Doesn't a black hole need to start out as a star with a mass of something like 6 or 7 of our suns to be self sustaining?

It depends on who is right!
The example you are talking about would go like this (ripped from Wiki):

"A black hole of one solar mass has a temperature of only 60 nanokelvin; in fact, such a black hole would absorb far more cosmic microwave background radiation than it emits. A black hole of 4.5 × 1022 kg (about the mass of the Moon) would be in equilibrium at 2.7 kelvins, absorbing as much radiation as it emits. Yet smaller primordial black holes would emit more than they absorb, and thereby lose mass."

This is a long shot chance that something bad will happen, based on an interpretation of string theory, which still needs much work itself. The reason that people get excited about the LHC is that it might produce observations that could prove some predictions made in that very same theory. That's kind of ironic.

Oh no, we may all die! Quick, let's build a giant bubble to live in and not explore, as it's too dangerous.

[7960]

The lawsuit is bullshit.

The interesting point it brings up, though, is the question of who has the right to say "that's going to be too dangerous" and stop someone else from doing something? Say scientists decide to intentionally create a black hole and figure out how to do it............does another country have the legal authority to stop them? Does the UN ( sorry, couldn't help but laugh)?

[David Octavius]

Originally Posted by 7960

The lawsuit is bullshit.

The interesting point it brings up, though, is the question of who has the right to say "that's going to be too dangerous" and stop someone else from doing something? Say scientists decide to intentionally create a black hole and figure out how to do it............does another country have the legal authority to stop them? Does the UN ( sorry, couldn't help but laugh)?

Since a black hole would be considered clear and present danger, any country could justify invaded another to stop it

A little off topic but as for the UN, either they need methods of force and coercion to get countries to follow their directives (such as stopping aid) or they should just go away. Reminds me of our Congress during the articles of confederation, they had no real power.

[7960]

Originally Posted by David Octavius

A little off topic but as for the UN, either they need methods of force and coercion to get countries to follow their directives (such as stopping aid) or they should just go away. Reminds me of our Congress during the articles of confederation, they had no real power.

The UN should die a quick and painful death.

[kombayn]

^I totally and completely agree with you. 100% There's a first time for everything.

[JTankers]

CERNs web site states that we have not been destroyed by effects of cosmic rays and micro black holes will evaporate.


However, cosmic rays travel too fast to be captured by Earths gravity, and Hawking Radiation is disputed and contradicts Einsteins highly successful relativity theory. Collider particles smash head on like a car collision and can be captured by Earths gravity, and relativity predicts micro black holes will not decay (Hawking called Einstein doubly wrong, yet it is Einstein who is repeatedly found to have been correct in his theories). There is currently no reasonable proof of LHC safety, LSAG (LHC Safety Assessment Group) has been trying for months to prove safety without success. I hold the minority opinion that it may not be possible because it may in fact not be safe.


Cosmic Rays from the legal complaint.
any such novel particle created in nature by cosmic ray impacts would be left with a velocity at nearly the speed of light, relative to earth. At such speeds, . . . , is believed by most theorists to simply pass harmlessly through our planet with nary an impact, safely exiting on the other side. . . . Conversely, any such novel particle that might be created at the LHC would be at slow speed relative to earth, a goodly percentage would then be captured by earths gravity, and could possibly grow larger [accrete matter] with disastrous consequences of the earth turning into a large black hole.


If this thing is so safe, why arent CERN scientists allowed to express any personal fears they might have about this Collider?


Alleged in the legal action: Chief Scientific Officer, Mr. Engelen passed an internal memorandum to workers at CERN, asking them, regardless of personal opinion, to affirm in all interviews that there were no risks involved in the experiments, changing the previous assertion of minimal risk.


(Statisticians generally consider minimal risk as 1-10%).


What do you think about what Professor Dr. Otto E. Roessler says about possible danger from the Large Hadron Collider at (translation from German at LHC Concerns: A Rational Voice to a Rational Argument • View topic - Professor Dr. Otto E. Roessler)


JTankers
LHCConcerns.com

[7960]

Originally Posted by JTankers

What do you think about what Professor Dr. Otto E. Roessler says about possible danger from the Large Hadron Collider at (translation from German at LHC Concerns: A Rational Voice to a Rational Argument • View topic - Professor Dr. Otto E. Roessler)


JTankers
LHCConcerns.com

It is already quite a while ago that the chaos research made publicly attentive on itself. Also over black holes for a long time nothing more was reported. Both is already nearly normal. But the Transmediale of this year dedicated itself in the citizen of Berlin house of the cultures of the world to the topic of the conspiracy. "Conspire." is the slogan of this year of the steeped in tradition festival for art and digital culture. With professor Otto E. Roessler the curators invited completely special key note a Speaker to their conference. The habilitierte biochemist, chaos researcher and untiring reconnaissance aircraft in the service of the natural science and art are among other things well-known for it,..............

Is this translated? Because it makes little sense as written.



edit.........Translation Page 1.........yep, nevermind.

[7960]

The question, which remains, is, how long it lasts then, until this small black hole grew sufficient strongly, in order to finally up-eat the whole world. That sounds absurd, is however last end very probable. There is an estimation with BBC Horizon that this 50 million years will last. That is the official Worst Case Scenario. But they forget with the fact that there is chaos and non-linearity. Thus it grows many faster. I came in such a way on a factor of 50 months!

so some scientists say 50 million years and three guys say "but chaos!! it could be 50 months!!"................or 50 million years.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Schrödinger's Cat

It depends on who is right!
The example you are talking about would go like this (ripped from Wiki):

"A black hole of one solar mass has a temperature of only 60 nanokelvin; in fact, such a black hole would absorb far more cosmic microwave background radiation than it emits. A black hole of 4.5 × 1022 kg (about the mass of the Moon) would be in equilibrium at 2.7 kelvins, absorbing as much radiation as it emits. Yet smaller primordial black holes would emit more than they absorb, and thereby lose mass."

This is a long shot chance that something bad will happen, based on an interpretation of string theory, which still needs much work itself. The reason that people get excited about the LHC is that it might produce observations that could prove some predictions made in that very same theory. That's kind of ironic.

Oh no, we may all die! Quick, let's build a giant bubble to live in and not explore, as it's too dangerous.

@ name, av, and context here

outstanding.jpg

[thewise1]

God high energy physics fascinates me so very very much.

[Dumpy Dooby]

High energy physics make me poop myself.

[JTankers]

Hawking Radiation theory is disputed by at least 3 credible peer reviewed studies and by professor Albert Einstein's theories.

* 2008 ... this prediction is not without its problems... no very good responses to these concerns... completely alters the picture drawn by Hawking...
** www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0503/0503052v1.pdf

* 2008 ... Max-Plank-Institut fur Astrophysik: The results indicate that on average, "low mass" black holes of less than a hundred million solar masses are still growing at a significant rate. [reason for growth is speculative]
** www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/mpa/research/current_research/hl2004-7/hl2004-7-en.html

* 2004 ... it may be a long time before we have sufficient knowledge of quantum gravity to be able to calculate the correct answers for the logarithmic terms in the entropy.
** www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/mpa/research/current_research/hl2004-7/hl2004-7-en.html

* 2004 ... 9.9% average doubt, ranging from 0% to 50% doubt by 15 physicists polled even before much of the peer reviewed credible rejection of Hawking Radiation was published
** www.lhcconcerns.com/#James_Blodgett

* 2003 ... Yet this prediction rests on two dubious assumptions... no compelling theoretical case for or against radiation by black holes:
** www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304042

* 1900s ... Albert Einstein's theories require that black holes only grow, they never shrink, not even light can exit a black hole

(And scientists have recently conceded that Albert Einstein was at least equally correct when he proposed a non-paradoxical deterministic model of quantum physics, and now efforts to prove superiority of Bohmian theory have been proposed. www.newscientist.com/article/mg19726485.700-quantum-randomness-may-not-be-random.html)

Recently when asked if the Large Hadron Collider was safe, Professor Hawking said "Particles from collisions far greater than those in the LHC occur all the time in cosmic rays, but nothing terrible happens.". What?
www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-hawking12apr12,1,3191870.story

Even CERN's own LHC Safety Assessment Group has conceded the that cosmic ray impacts with Earth could not endanger Earth, because unlike particles created by head-on collider collisions, cosmic ray created particles travel too fast to be captured by Earths gravity and are all safely expelled into space.

[kombayn]

It'd be an awesome way to go out for the Planet Earth. You were sucked into a black-hole, muwahahaha!

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Scrum

I just watched the episode of The Universe again that talks about this very issue.


YouTube - The Universe- Cosmic Holes part 1

Damn it! That show, while informative makes my brain turn to mush with the crazy comparisons they make.

Originally Posted by The Universe

Our solar system is like an amusement park

No, it is not. It is nothing like an amusement park in any way.

Once again, the analogies make it oh so hard to watch

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kombayn

It'd be an awesome way to go out for the Planet Earth. You were sucked into a black-hole, muwahahaha!

No one would be around to proclaim it as awesome though