The American spirit

[Ezra Smack]

If you really think about it, the closest mankind has ever come to a true Libertarian society was in the early years of the United States.

My guess as to the reason is as follows.

Before the Revolution, the typical person who would have immigrated to the new world would probably be the boldest and most adventurous young man in his village. He would have had to leave every thing behind and embark on a perilous two month sea voyage with a real chance of going down in a storm.
He might have even had to indenture himself for seven years of labor just to pay for the voyage, but it was worth it to have the opportunity of liberty in a new land.

After arriving, he could expect to face starvation, Indian attacks, disease and a myriad of hardships and dangers.

He probably would have little money but access to plenty of free land. That meant building a log cabin with only hand tools and muscle power (ever cut down a tree with an ax?) There were no grocery stores or food stamps on the frontier so he had to provide for himself by hunting and farming (again, with only crude muscle powered implements)

It was this type of "rugged individual" and their direct descendants who founded this country. That's why traditional values like hard work and ingenuity were so valued by early Americans, because they meant SURVIVAL.

The Atlantic ocean acted as a "filter" that precluded many timid, less self sufficient people. Of those that did come here and make their own way, the idea of being told what to do by anyone, much less a distant British king was unconscionable. They loved their new found liberty and were willing to kill to keep it. So they did. This was the American spirit at it's finest.

After seven or eight generations and wave after wave of immigrants this spirit is all but extinguished in most people. It dwindles first in the cities and more populated areas where living becomes increasingly easy. As a result some of the oldest population centers in the country like Boston, New York have become the most socialistic. About the only place you still find concentrations of people with this spirit is out West or in the rural South which were more recently settled and the "rugged individualism" has not been completely bread out of the people yet.

Just my observation,

ES

[kinggovernor]

I agree completely, nicely worded

[Thorgrim]

early america saw northern communities band together to survive, remember jamestown and PR were both facing starvation until they made pacts with the natives, they didn't just tough it out on their own...had their been no natives to bond with, they would have probably all died

There were many reasons for "escape", a lot them included looking for gold, one has to look no further than the first settlement to see people were more interested in finding gold than farming and surviving

You make it sound like people who sell all their possessions to go to vegas and become professional poker players are ultra-competitors, I've known people like that and they are the epitome of lazy

Disease, starvation and hardships were happening all over Europe...in fact one could argue those who stayed had to face more than those who fled to America

Were there grocery stores or food stamps in Europe? One year of work in France as a peasant would kill most of the people on this board

[goldenponderbob]

Divinely ordained, by someone, to be "Cops/Nannies of the World".

Always first with the food, bandages and cash at every global disaster.

Always taking the blame when people start punching each other practically anywhere on the planet, and quickist to send weapons so they won't bruise their poor little knuckles.

Forgivers of dept to nations who wish us nothing but hate; except when they are in need of further assistance.

Treaters of bordercrashers better than our own homegrown poorfolk.

Never neutral; always taking sides, even on issues is as nutty as the goshdarn (I suppressed the less gentile expression) "Falkland Islands" (wouldn't it be nice to be Swisslike, just once).

Providers of the home of the UN, who then go off half-cocked on our own military adventure, when they reject our proposal, for the sake "world peace"

That's my "American Spirit" short list.

goldenponderbob

Would it be so bad if we were occasionaly , oh..., say third, with the goods in the cases described above, maybe just once, right after Paraquay).

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

early america saw northern communities band together to survive, remember jamestown and PR were both facing starvation until they made pacts with the natives, they didn't just tough it out on their own...had their been no natives to bond with, they would have probably all died

There were many reasons for "escape", a lot them included looking for gold, one has to look no further than the first settlement to see people were more interested in finding gold than farming and surviving

You make it sound like people who sell all their possessions to go to vegas and become professional poker players are ultra-competitors, I've known people like that and they are the epitome of lazy

Disease, starvation and hardships were happening all over Europe...in fact one could argue those who stayed had to face more than those who fled to America

Were there grocery stores or food stamps in Europe? One year of work in France as a peasant would kill most of the people on this board

Most of the gold hunters came after they found gold in California.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Most of the gold hunters came after they found gold in California.

Many gold hunters came when they found gold in "the new world" and people didn't understand the difference between the Aztec empire and North America

Many others that came included religious zealots

Early settlers were a combination of fanatics and get-rich-quick folks

The myth of people coming to America to set up libertarian outposts is...comical to say the least

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Many gold hunters came when they found gold in "the new world" and people didn't understand the difference between the Aztec empire and North America

Many others that came included religious zealots

Early settlers were a combination of fanatics and get-rich-quick folks

The myth of people coming to America to set up libertarian outposts is...comical to say the least

Many come because there was no land to be had in Europe and in the new would there was. Many of the farms went to the oldest son so that left a lot of good farmers to come to America. Without land many could not even marry. Religious Zealots our puritan fore fathers that was the name of the game for everyone back then. They all took their religion serious but it helped them make it in the new world, and it is a important part of our culture now, but it is called protestantism. I know many people want us to destroy that part of our culture, but it is one of the rocks we stand on in a turbulant sea.

[RMNIXON]

America was not just new territory, it was new in a political sense. We did not have the historical baggage of Europe.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Many come because there was no land to be had in Europe and in the new would there was. Many of the farms went to the oldest son so that left a lot of good farmers to come to America. Without land many could not even marry. Religious Zealots our puritan fore fathers that was the name of the game for everyone back then. They all took their religion serious but it helped them make it in the new world, and it is a important part of our culture now, but it is called protestantism. I know many people want us to destroy that part of our culture, but it is one of the rocks we stand on in a turbulant sea.

It was Puritanism, and it was the brand that led to the Salem witch trials and...just read the founders of MA own writings, they were fucking wackos to the Nth degree

If the Puritan spirit was so essential to America, we wouldn't have them at roughly 0% of the population

[thewise1]

I agree.

That said, I think that if you really lived among those people, as much respect as I do have for them, you would find the majority of them to be uneducated, ignorant, and frustrating. Even as a really strong libertarian myself, I think it important to not get too romantic about the whole idea, because while I would have loved to discuss politics with Thomas Jefferson, he was probably a lot more of an exception to the rule.

Only one thing I would like to add - the immigrants that come here are probably closer to that spirit than 95% of the people in this country, whether they are legal or not.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

It was Puritanism, and it was the brand that led to the Salem witch trials and...just read the founders of MA own writings, they were fucking wackos to the Nth degree

If the Puritan spirit was so essential to America, we wouldn't have them at roughly 0% of the population

The ancestors we now call protestants and everyone back then was wacho about their religion. Check out the religious wars in Europe one was call a hundred years war. People who try to compare the two periods should be careful. It was a savage and wacho world back then.

[DosEquis]

A lot of it has to do with the transportation of the time. The world was a lot bigger back then. Everything from fanaticism to our nations ability to defeat the most powerful country in the world was made possible because of that.

[IminWonderland]

The issue that I have with the "american spirit," is that I think at it's root, it is self destructive for many of the reasons that goldenponderbob stated.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

The ancestors we now call protestants and everyone back then was wacho about their religion. Check out the religious wars in Europe one was call a hundred years war. People who try to compare the two periods should be careful. It was a savage and wacho world back then.

the hundred years war was not over religion...it was between two catholic nations over territory and revenue

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

the hundred years war was not over religion...it was between two catholic nations over territory and revenue

Sorry about that bad example.