A liberal against gun control

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by 7960

Wrong.

Most people hunt because they want to.

hunting is actually more expensive than the grocery store.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by kombayn

We're insane? You're insane. You think someone can just go out in the United States and buy 20 AK-47's? They can't.

We have a very good background check system, which is why all firearms need to be legal and not regulated so the government can keep track of who are purchasing said items.

Personally, I keep firearms in my safe. But as a poster said earlier, during a home invasion, you would think differently. Criminals with the intent to harm someone need to be dealt with accordingly and citizens can't always wait for the police.

I would much rather know that I have a firearm, ready to use to protect my family or friends then being helpless to criminals who do have weapons and can dictate what they want to do with us.

But then again, Thorgrim. I doubt you've ever had to deal with robbery. At least the person who started the thread is being a realist about gun control.

Robbery, North Philly? Never

If you don't think people with cash can get their hands on twenty AR-15s, you need to go out and explore the gun world a little

Seriously, some people here need to lay off the movies...home invasion in which you think a few seconds will decide whether you kill all the bad guys or be taken over?

You know the pro-gun movement has tens of millions of Americans who have been part of the movement for decades, I have yet to see fucking ONE account of someone who was the subject of a home invasion and they almost had their gun ready, but it took too long to get the trigger lock off and just 2-3 seconds before they could unlock it, the guy finally reached their bedroom and wounded him, and raped the family/usual home invasion stuff

I would bet a good chunk of change that it has never happened, ever, in the history of the United States...its so impractical

I think it's more likely that someone with two 9mms jumped sideways through the air in his house and killed a dozen gang members before he hit landed, or whatever else BS scenario some gun nuts dream up

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by hsmith

his arguments are the best.

Lets mandate Universal Health Care and find the money for that.

But we can't afford to process criminals, so lets do away with the 2nd amendment.

I can't see everyone's post, who the heck said we should "do away with the 2nd amendment because of money problems with too many drug offenders in prison...but find money for UHC?"

can you give me an exact quote on that?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

There are many people who can take off a trigger lock in 3 seconds

i've seen a friend who works for the feds do it

please tell me that from the time you hear a noise at the other end of your house, you need less than 3 seconds?

Whoever thinks they do needs to stop living in action movies designed for 12 year olds

I've read literally thousands of police reports, crimes happen two ways:

1) The person has many minutes, many times hours, to prepare after there is a hint of serious danger
2) The person never saw it coming and didn't even have a fraction of a second...one minute he is eating ice cream the next minute someone behind him he never saw blew his brains out

Or we could teach our children to have an appropriate respect for them and leave them alone without an adult there. Worked great for my siblings and I.

Dad kept his arsenal in his closet all our lives, ammunition on the floor next to it. 2 or 3 pistols, about 10 rifles of varying types. I think that much like sex, it's best to take the route of full disclosure and free information instead of pretending it doesn't exist to kids.

Why do you, a non gun owner, feel you're more qualified to tell me how to store my firearms than I am?

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Dad kept his arsenal in his closet all our lives, ammunition on the floor next to it. 2 or 3 pistols, about 10 rifles of varying types. I think that much like sex, it's best to take the route of full disclosure and free information instead of pretending it doesn't exist to kids.

werd

All while I grew up there were at least 3 rifles and 2 or 3 pistols in an unlocked gun safe in the house. I believe I wasn't tempted to take them and shoot them when nobody was around for two reasons:

1. if I asked to shoot them then my dad foud a time/place to take me shooting, and
2. if I did take one and shoot it my dad would have found out and my ass would probably still be sore from the spanking.

And it's funny that I say #2 because I was probably only spanked twice in my life.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

werd

All while I grew up there were at least 3 rifles and 2 or 3 pistols in an unlocked gun safe in the house. I believe I wasn't tempted to take them and shoot them when nobody was around for two reasons:

1. if I asked to shoot them then my dad foud a time/place to take me shooting, and
2. if I did take one and shoot it my dad would have found out and my ass would probably still be sore from the spanking.

And it's funny that I say #2 because I was probably only spanked twice in my life.

I definitely can't say the same about being spanked only twice I was a little jackass, but I still didn't touch the guns without permission.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by kombayn

We're insane? You're insane. You think someone can just go out in the United States and buy 20 AK-47's? They can't.

We have a very good background check system, which is why all firearms need to be legal and not regulated so the government can keep track of who are purchasing said items.

Personally, I keep firearms in my safe. But as a poster said earlier, during a home invasion, you would think differently. Criminals with the intent to harm someone need to be dealt with accordingly and citizens can't always wait for the police.

I would much rather know that I have a firearm, ready to use to protect my family or friends then being helpless to criminals who do have weapons and can dictate what they want to do with us.

But then again, Thorgrim. I doubt you've ever had to deal with robbery. At least the person who started the thread is being a realist about gun control.

His scenario is already illegal as it is a straw purchase. Both the person doing the buying is committing a felony as is the person taking ownership of the gun.

He really knows little about the gun laws which he claims to want so much more of. Much like how the Brady Campaign is trying to exploit the VT shootings to stop "The Gun Show Loophole" which doesn't exist and had NOTHING to do with shootins at Tech. If you know what the "gun show loophole" is, you would realize that it is a fantasy of the anti-gunners who wish to ban private sales of firearms.

It seems pretty typical in these types of threads. One who knows little about the laws dreams up these elaborate scenarios which they know nothing about to try to defend their defenseless positions.

[kinggovernor]

Firearm Use by Offenders
Describes firearm use of State and Federal prison inmates. Data are from the Surveys of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities. These surveys of nationally-representative samples of prison inmates in 1997 asked inmates about their use of firearms during their current offense. Topics of this BJS Special Report include types of firearms used, characteristics of inmates using firearms, why and where inmates used their firearms, and where they obtained their firearms.

Highlights include the following:


During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years.
Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Firearm Use by Offenders

you want to get at the heart of the gun problem in this country, blame states that more likely don't give a sentence enhancement for the firearm they carried during their crime. And blame the federal government for only doing it slightly more than half the time.

Both should 100%.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by hsmith

His scenario is already illegal as it is a straw purchase. Both the person doing the buying is committing a felony as is the person taking ownership of the gun.

Purchasing a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one, or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction, is a “straw purchase,” a Federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000.
Buying a gun for another person who is prohibited can cost you your good name and land you in big trouble. Never buy a gun for someone who is unwilling or unable to do so. For more information on what you can do to ensure that you do not knowingly or unknowingly participate in a straw purchase, contact your local ATF office or call 1-800-ATF-GUNS.
Don’t Lie for the Other Guy is a component of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Project Safe Neighborhoods. The program is a partnership of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Inc.; the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; and the Office of Justice Programs’ Bureau of Justice Assistance.

Don't Lie for the Other Guy

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Firearm Use by Offenders
Describes firearm use of State and Federal prison inmates. Data are from the Surveys of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities. These surveys of nationally-representative samples of prison inmates in 1997 asked inmates about their use of firearms during their current offense. Topics of this BJS Special Report include types of firearms used, characteristics of inmates using firearms, why and where inmates used their firearms, and where they obtained their firearms.

Highlights include the following:


During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years.
Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Firearm Use by Offenders

you want to get at the heart of the gun problem in this country, blame states that more likely don't give a sentence enhancement for the firearm they carried during their crime. And blame the federal government for only doing it slightly more than half the time.

Both should 100%.

What I don't understand is why there even would be a gun sentence enhancement. If you rape a woman, the mere presence of a gun isn't going to change the crime committed; why should someone who does it without a gun get off easier?

If you murder someone with your bare hands, are they any less dead than if you shot them?

I don't get that, maybe I'm just missing something.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

why should someone who does it without a gun get off easier?

they're not getting off easier.

if you rape, there's a penalty.
if a gun is involved when you rape, the penalty is increased.

that doesn't mean if you don't use a gun you get off easier....it means if you use one you're going away longer.

[thewise1]

But the net effect remains the same. The victim is equally violated, yet the guy who didn't use a gun wasn't punished as harshly.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

But the net effect remains the same. The victim is equally violated, yet the guy who didn't use a gun wasn't punished as harshly.

if you're caught speeding you get a ticket.
if you're caught speeding and you have a dead body in the trunk you go to prison.

so if you're *only* speeding you "get off easier"?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

if you're caught speeding you get a ticket.
if you're caught speeding and you have a dead body in the trunk you go to prison.

so if you're *only* speeding you "get off easier"?

In one example you sped.
In the other example you killed someone and then sped.

Homicide = prison
Speeding = ticket

Both are illegal.

Carrying a gun is legal.
Raping is illegal.

Thus, if you rape, you go to prison.
If you rape and carry a gun, you go to prison longer, but carrying a gun in and of itself is not illegal.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

In one example you sped.
In the other example you killed someone and then sped.

Homicide = prison
Speeding = ticket

Both are illegal.

Carrying a gun is legal.
Raping is illegal.

Thus, if you rape, you go to prison.
If you rape and carry a gun, you go to prison longer, but carrying a gun in and of itself is not illegal.

but it's an aggravating factor if you're carrying it when you commit a felony.

carrying a hollowed out apple isn't illegal. do it while you also have a bag of weed and you're going to get charged with having drugs *and* paraphernalia.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

but it's an aggravating factor if you're carrying it when you commit a felony.

carrying a hollowed out apple isn't illegal. do it while you also have a bag of weed and you're going to get charged with having drugs *and* paraphernalia.

You do realize I'm discussing how it should be, not asking for you to make an appeal to current law, right?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by thewise1

In one example you sped.
In the other example you killed someone and then sped.

Homicide = prison
Speeding = ticket

Both are illegal.

Carrying a gun is legal.
Raping is illegal.

Thus, if you rape, you go to prison.
If you rape and carry a gun, you go to prison longer, but carrying a gun in and of itself is not illegal.

but using a gun in the commission of a crime is illegal. Robbery versus armed robbery for instance:

In 1998, criminals in Florida used guns to commit 31,643 violent felonies, including 13,937 armed robberies. That year, the mandatory punishment for using a gun to commit a violent felony was only three years in prison. During his campaign for Governor in 1998, Jeb Bush proposed the toughest gun-crime law in the nation: 10-20-LIFE. Under 10-20-LIFE, a felon who used a gun to commit a crime like armed robbery would face at least 10 years in state prison.

The 1999 Florida Legislature passed sweeping legislation that provides for enhanced minimum mandatory prison terms for offenders who commit crimes with guns.


Mandates a minimum 10 year prison term for certain felonies, or attempted felonies in which the offender possesses a firearm or destructive device
Mandates a minimum 20 year prison term when the firearm is discharged
Mandates a minimum 25 years to LIFE if someone is injured or killed
Mandates a minimum 3 year prison term for possession of a firearm by a felon
Mandates that the minimum prison term is to be served consecutively to any other term of imprisonment imposed
The Department of Corrections provides printed materials, such as: Bumper Stickers; Vinyl Window Clings; Posters in English, and Spanish; and Brochures in English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole, to public and private schools, businesses, and other public areas for display.

The results under 10-20-LIFE are impressive. In only six years, from 1998-2004, 10-20-LIFE has helped drive down violent gun crime rates 30 percent statewide (see Firearm Involved Violent Crimes). During the 10-20-LIFE era, armed criminals robbed a total of 10,567 fewer people and killed a total 380 fewer than they would have if these crime numbers had remained at 1998 levels. These crime decreases occurred even as Florida's population increased over 2.5 million (16.8 percent) between 1998 and 2004. Punishing criminals who use guns is making our state safer.

In addition to the Governor's 10-20-LIFE initiative, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, working with local law enforcement agencies and prosecutors created innovative anti-crime strategies such as Operation T.H.U.G.S., (Taking Hoodlums Using Guns Seriously.) T.H.U.G.S targets felons who have existing violent-crime warrants and have a history of violence. Anyone can call the Florida Department of Law Enforcement at 1-800-704-0231 toll free to report these dangerous criminals. Operation T.H.U.G.S has resulted in 540 arrests and paid substantial rewards, contributing to our lower crime rates.
Florida 10-20-LIFE -- Mandatory Minimum Prison Sentences

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

You do realize I'm discussing how it should be, not asking for you to make an appeal to current law, right?

yes, and I see nothing wrong with realizing that it's legal to walk in a store with a gun but if you commit a felony then the gun SHOULD be an aggravating factor.

if I have a dime in my pocket when I rob a bank there's no way that could escalate the situation. if I have a 9mm in my pocket then it most certainly can.

[thewise1]