Your gut reaction to this statement?

Ezra Smack · 04-10-2008, 02:54 PM

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

_ Michelle Obama

Ezra Smack · 04-10-2008, 02:55 PM

When I bake pie at my house, I get to eat it all.

If you want pie, bake your own!

7960 · 04-10-2008, 03:00 PM

She's right, to get those someone's going to have to give up something.

The question is if those are things we actually want.

Phantom · 04-10-2008, 03:04 PM

True statement, but that's the case with any government program.

thewise1 · 04-10-2008, 03:55 PM

It's true.

I can't fault the logic in it. I do believe it's evil to force it on us, though.

Thorgrim · 04-10-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

It's true. I can't fault the logic in it. I do believe it's evil to force it on us, though.

I'm curious, were the founding fathers evil to force the constitution on states that didn't ratify it in 1789?

Ezra Smack · 04-10-2008, 04:20 PM

True liberty is the right to bake all the pie you want provided you do not harm, endanger or infringe on your neighbors right to bake pie. When the government steals part of your neighbors pie and gives it to you in order to buy your vote, that is tyranny.

Even if you can't afford pie.

Even if your neighbor has more than you.

Even if are too stupid or lazy to bake for yourself.

No "right" can be had at the expense of other people.

thewise1 · 04-10-2008, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'm curious, were the founding fathers evil to force the constitution on states that didn't ratify it in 1789?

Are you referring to the fact that the constitutional government didn't wait for NC and RI to ratify before they began operations, or something more specific?

Thorgrim · 04-10-2008, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by thewise1

Are you referring to the fact that the constitutional government didn't wait for NC and RI to ratify before they began operations, or something more specific?

The former, but

RI more specifically because of the longer window of operations...more serious government action...and remember RI almost voted no in 1790 so it could have been even longer, wouldn't that have been a wee bit statist? Letting the majority rule the minority?

motivez · 04-10-2008, 05:09 PM

True statement, but true of so many things, including the fact that we have a government at all.

WickedLou9 · 04-10-2008, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

True liberty is the right to bake all the pie you want provided you do not harm, endanger or infringe on your neighbors right to bake pie. When the government steals part of your neighbors pie and gives it to you in order to buy your vote, that is tyranny.

Even if you can't afford pie.

Even if your neighbor has more than you.

Even if are too stupid or lazy to bake for yourself.

No "right" can be had at the expense of other people.

UNless of course you live within the confines of a civilized society in which the well being of the entire group is dependant on the success of each of it's members. Contrary to your opinion, if you neighbor goes bankrupt and his house gets foreclosed on, you will suffer for it, both directly and indirectly. No man is an island.
If you want true liberty you should move to a deserted island with no other people on it.

Spideynw · 04-10-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

_ Michelle Obama

Untrue. The "pie" is not a fixed amount. It can either grow or shrink. It all depends on availability of energy and how efficient the market becomes.

Given the fact that half of the healthcare is already provided by the government and the fact that the other half is so highly regulated, I doubt "universal" healthcare will do much to change the current situation.

As to "revamping" the educational system, I have no idea what that means. If she is talking about vouchers, it probably would not have any effect on the "pie" either.

Rouger2 · 04-10-2008, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

True liberty is the right to bake all the pie you want provided you do not harm, endanger or infringe on your neighbors right to bake pie. When the government steals part of your neighbors pie and gives it to you in order to buy your vote, that is tyranny.

Even if you can't afford pie.

Even if your neighbor has more than you.

Even if are too stupid or lazy to bake for yourself.

No "right" can be had at the expense of other people.

That big old mean government we don't live in a dictatorship or any of its cousins. We live in a democratic republic where the people are the government. We vote for our reps and they rule with our influence. If things are done it is because the majority of the people wanted it done through their reps. You may be in the minority on some issues but we protect our minorities and allow them a voice. I am on a lot of things and try to yell loud to try to make changes, but I don't believe the government is one bad boogie man. I think it is that some of our reps in government are to close to big business and they are the problem with them taking money for their political races, and also the ones who are to close to the lobbiest. The people should have the influence not money. Big business can have their say which I have no problem with, but not with hands full of money.

RMNIXON · 04-10-2008, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

_ Michelle Obama

Well, it tell us a great deal about her. I could not tell you if Obama agrees or not. I still can't tell you much if anything about the man.

This is the lefts view of economics. The wealth of a Nation as some abstract divided pie that is not cut up fairly. They either ignor the actual productivity necessary to generate our level of prosperity, or de-emphasize it as much as possible with talking points about "fair share" or how can some % of the public own another % of the countries wealth.

Once you go down the road of egalitarian thinking where exactly do you stop? Who gets to play God trying to make everything fair from their point of view? Why stop at healthcare anyway. Why not just say everyone is entitled to an income at the cost of somebody else and be done wit it?

hsmith · 04-10-2008, 07:46 PM

Well lets see, Obama considers anyone not collecting welfare rich, so looks like we all will be paying

Thorgrim · 04-10-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Well lets see, Obama considers anyone not collecting welfare rich, so looks like we all will be paying

where is that quote?

Ezra Smack · 04-11-2008, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

UNless of course you live within the confines of a civilized society in which the well being of the entire group is dependant on the success of each of it's members. Contrary to your opinion, if you neighbor goes bankrupt and his house gets foreclosed on, you will suffer for it, both directly and indirectly. No man is an island.
If you want true liberty you should move to a deserted island with no other people on it.

How is my well being dependant on the sucess or failure of any one individual? Suppose we did not have all of these social programs that force me to pay for other peoples ineptness? The only reason I may suffer if my neighbor goes bankrupt is that part of my income will be confiscated to pay for him not honoring his debts.

"Collectivism is the doctrine that the social collective -- called the people, the state, society etc. -- has rights, needs, or moral authority above and apart from the individuals who comprise it. We hear this idea continually championed in such familiar platitudes as 'the needs of the people take precedence over the rights of the individual,' 'production for people, not profits,' and 'the common good.'
"Collectivism often sounds humane because it stresses the importance of human needs. In reality, it is little more than a rationalization for sacrificing you and me to the desires of others." -- Jarret B. Wollstein in The Causes of Aggression,

WickedLou9 · 04-11-2008, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

How is my well being dependant on the sucess or failure of any one individual? Suppose we did not have all of these social programs that force me to pay for other peoples ineptness? The only reason I may suffer if my neighbor goes bankrupt is that part of my income will be confiscated to pay for him not honoring his debts.

"Collectivism is the doctrine that the social collective -- called the people, the state, society etc. -- has rights, needs, or moral authority above and apart from the individuals who comprise it. We hear this idea continually championed in such familiar platitudes as 'the needs of the people take precedence over the rights of the individual,' 'production for people, not profits,' and 'the common good.'
"Collectivism often sounds humane because it stresses the importance of human needs. In reality, it is little more than a rationalization for sacrificing you and me to the desires of others." -- Jarret B. Wollstein in The Causes of Aggression,

See that is where you are wrong.
Just for example. If your neighbors house goes into forclosure, your property value goes down. Crime in your area goes up. You are directly effected. You are also effected when many people go into forclosure because the effects on the credit market will affect your ability to get credit from other lending institutions. There are also larger economic effects. IF your other neighbor is say, a home builder or a contractor, he will lose business. HIs income goes down so he can't spend as much. Repeat this all around the country and you are effected by the overall business climate. Perhaps you don't get a raise this year or perhaps you get laid off depending on what industry you work in.
This is just one tiny example that happens to be occuring now in our country. The system within which we live is very complex and everyone and everything is interdependant.
I don't know who this Wollstein guy is, but he sounds like a moron to me. Quoting some unknown nitwit doesn't make the statement any more credible than if you uttered those words yourself.

AVengeance · 04-14-2008, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ezra Smack

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

_ Michelle Obama

I agree that her statement is true. That is, in order to give to the freeloaders, the rest of us must suffer. What I don't believe, though, is that we should give our pie to those that don't want to knead a little dough.

motivez · 04-14-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Well lets see, Obama considers anyone not collecting welfare rich, so looks like we all will be paying

I'd like to see a link to this as well