Interesting notes, possibly accurate, about the founding fathers religious views

Thorgrim · 04-11-2008, 01:37 AM

As a general historian, i never got caught up in the biography crazy world of history-for-profit...and i generally consider it, along with books that detail battles, to be of little value

However I saw this and was curious if anyone had any comments:

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1790.

Speaking of the independence of the first 13 States, H.G. Wells in his Outline of History, says:

"It was a Western European civilization that had broken free from the last traces of Empire and Christendom; and it had not a vestige of monarchy left, and no State Religion... The absence of any binding religious tie is especially noteworthy. It had a number of forms of Christianity, its spirit was indubitably Christian; but, as a State document of 1796 expicity declared: 'The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'"

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

Dumpy Dooby · 04-11-2008, 05:38 AM

Do you have a position that you would like to assume, or are you just asking us to read this?

My opinion on this: it's a miniscule number of quotes from only a few Founders that does very little to depict their overall theological world views. For the most part, this looks like a bunch of garbage. I could compose a better list than this from memory.

PS-
I think there should be a rule: No cutting and pasting chain mails as a "post" or "thread"

Ardentfrost · 04-11-2008, 08:01 AM

I read a few of the quotes and thought to myself "I thought everyone on here had agreed that the founders were largely Deists." I mean, I could swear we have had this convo before.

It's people like my mom who swear up and down that all the founders were Christians and founded the nation to be a Christian nation. There were certainly Christians mixed among them, but the big names were Deists for sure. Jefferson even rewrote the Bible, removing all the miracles to emphasize the lessons of the book, trying to pull focus away from the damnation of hell and all that stuff (which still runs rampant today).

When I learned about their views, I was impressed because I had come to the same conclusions years before: a lot of Christianity focuses on not being evil so you don't go to hell over instilling good morals to make the right decisions. "Don't kill someone because it's one of the 10 Commandments and you'll go to hell." To me, that is a retarded approach as to why you shouldn't kill someone. IMO, the sanctity of life should be the focus.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion

It's just another way in which I agree with the founders.

7960 · 04-11-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

"Don't kill someone because it's one of the 10 Commandments and you'll go to hell." To me, that is a retarded approach as to why you shouldn't kill someone. IMO, the sanctity of life should be the focus.

doesn't sanctity mean holiness, so didn't you just trade one religious thing for another?

lew · 04-11-2008, 08:54 AM

Dumpy and I have had this discussion many times.

My opinion of the entire matter is that the vast majority of Founding Fathers were Christians of various sects. A few were Deists. A few were Unitarians. Some were Christians when young and then became deists, and vice versa.

Some were "Christian Deists."

None were atheists.

Whether we are a "Christian nation" or not, both the liberal / atheist side gets it wrong and the conservative / fundamentalist side gets it wrong. We're something in between.

Linzyhop · 04-11-2008, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I read a few of the quotes and thought to myself "I thought everyone on here had agreed that the founders were largely Deists." I mean, I could swear we have had this convo before.

It's people like my mom who swear up and down that all the founders were Christians and founded the nation to be a Christian nation. There were certainly Christians mixed among them, but the big names were Deists for sure. Jefferson even rewrote the Bible, removing all the miracles to emphasize the lessons of the book, trying to pull focus away from the damnation of hell and all that stuff (which still runs rampant today).

When I learned about their views, I was impressed because I had come to the same conclusions years before: a lot of Christianity focuses on not being evil so you don't go to hell over instilling good morals to make the right decisions. "Don't kill someone because it's one of the 10 Commandments and you'll go to hell." To me, that is a retarded approach as to why you shouldn't kill someone. IMO, the sanctity of life should be the focus.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion It's just another way in which I agree with the founders.

i seem to remember participating in this conversation before too. something along the lines of my dad's crazy cousin saying it was founded a christian nation and blah blah blah....

sometin like that....

Ardentfrost · 04-11-2008, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

doesn't sanctity mean holiness, so didn't you just trade one religious thing for another?

All I'm saying is that doing something because it's a rule or doing something to avoid punishment are both 2-year-old ways of viewing life. 2 year olds don't touch daddy's playstation when he's not around because they know they'll get in trouble. As a child grows up, they realize that they shouldn't play with others' things without permission because it's the right thing to do.

Morals aren't about consequence, they're about being smart enough to distinguish between right and wrong (and good morals are about choosing right over wrong). Whether morals are taught from the perspective of religion, or as a parent, or whatever else doesn't matter.

No matter what your morals are based on, knowing that killing is wrong is all that should matter to an intellectual race. We have prisons and police not to dissuade people from committing murder, but to have somewhere to put people that cannot make the distinctions between right and wrong. Society is no place for those people.

Linzyhop · 04-11-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

All I'm saying is that doing something because it's a rule or doing something to avoid punishment are both 2-year-old ways of viewing life. 2 year olds don't touch daddy's playstation when he's not around because they know they'll get in trouble. As a child grows up, they realize that they shouldn't play with others' things without permission because it's the right thing to do.

Morals aren't about consequence, they're about being smart enough to distinguish between right and wrong (and good morals are about choosing right over wrong). Whether morals are taught from the perspective of religion, or as a parent, or whatever else doesn't matter.

No matter what your morals are based on, knowing that killing is wrong is all that should matter to an intellectual race. We have prisons and police not to dissuade people from committing murder, but to have somewhere to put people that cannot make the distinctions between right and wrong. Society is no place for those people.

that's why i don't believe in the concept of "sin"...

there are moral rights and wrongs. sin is something people don't do because they're scared of being punished. what kind of deterrent is that for the soul?

don't steal from that person because you'll go to hell? how about not stealing is the right thing to do, helping that person is the right thing to do.

intangible god figure. pppftp.

Ardentfrost · 04-11-2008, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Linzyhop

that's why i don't believe in the concept of "sin"...

there are moral rights and wrongs. sin is something people don't do because they're scared of being punished. what kind of deterrent is that for the soul?

don't steal from that person because you'll go to hell? how about not stealing is the right thing to do, helping that person is the right thing to do.

intangible god figure. pppftp.

Well, "sin" is just a word. Depending on usage, I guess, would change it for me. If you say "why shouldn't I kill someone?" and the answer is "because it's a sin" well, that's just retarded. If you use it in the same way as you would the phrase "morally wrong" then that's a different story. As in, "we should avoid sinful things and choose what is right and good." The word doesn't equate to the reason, but a description of the act.

7960 · 04-11-2008, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

All I'm saying is that doing something because it's a rule or doing something to avoid punishment are both 2-year-old ways of viewing life. 2 year olds don't touch daddy's playstation when he's not around because they know they'll get in trouble. As a child grows up, they realize that they shouldn't play with others' things without permission because it's the right thing to do.

Morals aren't about consequence, they're about being smart enough to distinguish between right and wrong (and good morals are about choosing right over wrong). Whether morals are taught from the perspective of religion, or as a parent, or whatever else doesn't matter.

No matter what your morals are based on, knowing that killing is wrong is all that should matter to an intellectual race. We have prisons and police not to dissuade people from committing murder, but to have somewhere to put people that cannot make the distinctions between right and wrong. Society is no place for those people.

whoa......i was just pointing out the irony of using a word that's definition is 100% religious to bash religion.

next time try decaf

Thorgrim · 04-11-2008, 11:46 AM

well i guess I was wondering

are these quotes accurate as they "seem" to be sourced to actual books (i know the treaty of tripoli is accurate, but that's about it)

George Washington not wanting any man of religion when he knew he was going to die? Fuck even I may want a priest just because they're good with dying people

John Adams saying the world would be better off without religion?

Never really studied James Madison's personal life, that one was a little surprise

I was under the impression when I was in undergrad that Benjamin Franklin was an atheist who was too smart to admit it publically as it could hurt his clout with the commoners and powerful

Also, I've heard people say "most of the founders were deists" but as far as direct evidence goes, ive done no significant research, but I find only John Adams/Thomas Jefferson to have a significant amount of information

In that HBO series they try to paint Adams as being a little more religious than I thought he was...and he never once rants against religion like I've seen actually sourced quotes have him doing (the line about the horrors the cross has brought)

Dumpy Dooby · 04-11-2008, 01:09 PM

The Treaty of Tripoli is cited twice under two different names.

Dumpy Dooby · 04-11-2008, 01:34 PM

Those quotes all seem accurate to me. The interpretation of the quotes and the interpretation of the Founders' religious views do not seem accurate. Of course it's also suspicious that the list omits any quotes that favor theism or Christianity.