Questions about education

[7960]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

Counting change out of a cash registar would be easier for them if you told them to count out the change up to a dollar or to get at twenty two dollars and then count the bills from twenty two dollars up to the fifty dollars. We make things to easy for people. Cash registars never used to show the change needed only the cost of the purchase.

and there were too many mistakes, so someone made a register that showed the change due.

and that made too many mistake, so someone made a register that the teller just had to put in the amount tended and it automatically dispensed coins and told the teller how many bills to give.

and now there are automated tellers that I put my money in and it gives me all my change.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I mentioned in one of my posts about counting up. Most of them have the ability to do that, some don't and would be blind without the calculator on the register. But counting up doesn't change the fact that it's very easy and common for an employee to mispress a key when they tender an amount, especially with today's touch screen registers we use. One slip when you're in a rush and suddenly they find themselves lost. Again, most can count up, but I don't fully trust that either. If they could find the total and recount their change before handing it over it would cut back on a lot of cash shortages. If it were your business and your money in the cash register would you prefer an employee who could perform basic arithmetic or someone who was forced to count up and hope they didn't make a mistake?

I would honestly prefer equipment that is accurate and an operator who knows how to use the thing.
When was the last time an employee ever keyd in a price anyway? They all use bar codes for the item and the price is stored in the system. If the system goes down, the cashier won't start doing math in thier head. The store will shut down. They use the registers for investory control as well and they need to know how many apples they sold. I have even been in supermarkets where, if you pay in cash, the machine counts out the change and dispenses for you. The cashier never touches the money or counts anything.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by 7960

That's being off by 10 cents, not a dollar.

You should be embarrassed.

backfire

[thewise1]

The best teacher I ever had - and I have to give credit where it's due, this guy taught at a community college and was basically the best teacher I've ever met - once told me that if I 'learn' mathematics, I'll forget it a week after the class, if I even remember it that long.

However, he also said that if I understand it, I will always have it available on demand. In my experience thus far in life, he's absolutely right.

There is no excuse to forget basic arithmetic. I knocked out the answer to that change question instantly and while I do exercise my mind against logical ideas regularly as a software developer, I don't really do basic math regularly. I'm not a "math person", I just understand math, and thus have no problem executing the operations required to give you an answer.

I've got nothing against those who would have to write it down. I can understand if you just can't keep track of the numbers, but if you can't do the operation, that's a problem. It's not even necessarily with the person, but with the process by which they were educated.

Multiplication tables, for example, are useful. I had to memorize them up to 12 x 12 and that's been very useful throughout my life for when I need to do a larger operation in my head, or for estimation or whatever. But before I memorized the table, I had to understand the concept of multiplication.

It isn't clinging to the past, either. It's the basis for all mathematics. Everything can be expressed in mathematical form. How could one justify depriving our children a chance to understand the closest thing we know to the language of the universe?

Even worse are when teachers defend this. To each, their own, friends, but your choices as teachers affect the future of our race, and I dare not let you educate my children.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I would honestly prefer equipment that is accurate and an operator who knows how to use the thing.
When was the last time an employee ever keyd in a price anyway? They all use bar codes for the item and the price is stored in the system. If the system goes down, the cashier won't start doing math in thier head. The store will shut down. They use the registers for investory control as well and they need to know how many apples they sold. I have even been in supermarkets where, if you pay in cash, the machine counts out the change and dispenses for you. The cashier never touches the money or counts anything.

I didn't say key in a price, I said key in the wrong amount tendered which happens more often than you'd think... especially with the modern touch screens.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

There is no excuse to forget basic arithmetic. I knocked out the answer to that change question instantly and while I do exercise my mind against logical ideas regularly as a software developer, I don't really do basic math regularly. I'm not a "math person", I just understand math, and thus have no problem executing the operations required to give you an answer.

I've got nothing against those who would have to write it down. I can understand if you just can't keep track of the numbers, but if you can't do the operation, that's a problem. It's not even necessarily with the person, but with the process by which they were educated.

There's a difference between being able to do the operation and doing the operation entirely in ones head. I can do it, it's simple math, but there's really no need in today's society to be able to do it..

People who routinely work with numbers, like cashiers, are people I would be able to expect to do it, especially older ones, but young kids who have always had access to machines like they have today? Not so much.

Originally Posted by thewise1

Multiplication tables, for example, are useful. I had to memorize them up to 12 x 12 and that's been very useful throughout my life for when I need to do a larger operation in my head, or for estimation or whatever. But before I memorized the table, I had to understand the concept of multiplication.

I really disagree with this, you can memorize the multiplication table up to 12 or 15 or whatever you had to do and not understand the concept.. straight memorization is a different aspect of knowledge than being able to calculate the results of a problem on the spot

Originally Posted by thewise1

It isn't clinging to the past, either. It's the basis for all mathematics. Everything can be expressed in mathematical form. How could one justify depriving our children a chance to understand the closest thing we know to the language of the universe?

Even worse are when teachers defend this. To each, their own, friends, but your choices as teachers affect the future of our race, and I dare not let you educate my children.

It is when you think everyone (or most people) have a real NEED to be able to do this in their heads. Like Lou said, cell phones come with a calculator, if you are worried something is wrong, it doesn't take that long to check.. nor would busting out a pen and napkin or whatever and doing it on a piece of paper..

I also have to disagree that being able to do subtraction in ones head prevents you from understanding math. There have been several people in my various calc / differential equations classes that had trouble with doing certain stuff in their heads, but they could do it fine on paper and got good grades..

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Even worse are when teachers defend this. To each, their own, friends, but your choices as teachers affect the future of our race, and I dare not let you educate my children.

I agree with everything you said. The number one reason my employees told me they couldn't do it was because they've been taught with a calculator. Some of them even had trouble figuring it out on paper, but most got it. They told me that since grade school they've been using calculators as the general rule. In fact, if they forgot to bring their calculator they would get their participation grade reduced for the day. They were discouraged from learning the basic arithmetic and were essentially forced to use a calculator during their studies. Now that they're in college (some of them) they can barely do basic math. As I said before this school is a Blue Ribbon School of Excellence in NJ (whatever that means) their HSPA scores are much, much higher than the national average. The state average in math is 73%, this school received a 90%. NJ has above average schools compared to all of America. This school is in one of the top 3 wealthiest counties in America. By all accounts, it's probably one of the best public schools in America. Yet, their students can't do basic math. I just don't get it. When I was in school they forced me to learn this stuff until I could do it in my sleep.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

There's a difference between being able to do the operation and doing the operation entirely in ones head. I can do it, it's simple math, but there's really no need in today's society to be able to do it..

People who routinely work with numbers, like cashiers, are people I would be able to expect to do it, especially older ones, but young kids who have always had access to machines like they have today? Not so much.

The need is deeper than a day to day usage. It's literally the language of the universe, at least as we understand it. Perhaps someday something even better will be invented, but for now it's the best we've got.

I think that the understanding of mathematics can lead to a better understanding of logic as well. Based on my experience in life, I can't emphasize the need for this understanding enough!

I really disagree with this, you can memorize the multiplication table up to 12 or 15 or whatever you had to do and not understand the concept.. straight memorization is a different aspect of knowledge than being able to calculate the results of a problem on the spot

I agree you can memorize anything you want, my point was that if you lack the understanding of why it is like that, you will be useless outside of the nice quick reference table that a multiplication table is.

It is when you think everyone (or most people) have a real NEED to be able to do this in their heads.

My concern is that they can do it on paper using no calculator. If you can do that, you are likely able to do it in your head as well, even if it takes longer for some folks.

Like Lou said, cell phones come with a calculator, if you are worried something is wrong, it doesn't take that long to check.. nor would busting out a pen and napkin or whatever and doing it on a piece of paper..

I also have to disagree that being able to do subtraction in ones head prevents you from understanding math. There have been several people in my various calc / differential equations classes that had trouble with doing certain stuff in their heads, but they could do it fine on paper and got good grades..

see above

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I agree with everything you said. The number one reason my employees told me they couldn't do it was because they've been taught with a calculator. Some of them even had trouble figuring it out on paper, but most got it.

Glad they could at least do that.

They told me that since grade school they've been using calculators as the general rule. In fact, if they forgot to bring their calculator they would get their participation grade reduced for the day.

So much here to look down on for me.

Participation grades = worthless.
Bringing a calculator to school for anything before pre-calc = worthless.
Grade school and calculators... ugh.

They were discouraged from learning the basic arithmetic and were essentially forced to use a calculator during their studies.

This is so egregious that I almost have to doubt it, and yet I've seen the result of the system, so I just don't know.

Now that they're in college (some of them) they can barely do basic math. As I said before this school is a Blue Ribbon School of Excellence in NJ (whatever that means) their HSPA scores are much, much higher than the national average. The state average in math is 73%, this school received a 90%. NJ has above average schools compared to all of America. This school is in one of the top 3 wealthiest counties in America. By all accounts, it's probably one of the best public schools in America. Yet, their students can't do basic math. I just don't get it. When I was in school they forced me to learn this stuff until I could do it in my sleep.

My only real comfort in all this is that people can tell me my kid doesn't need to learn it all they want, but I know, and can make sure she learns it.

This whole affair is very sad in my view

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

I also have to disagree that being able to do subtraction in ones head prevents you from understanding math. There have been several people in my various calc / differential equations classes that had trouble with doing certain stuff in their heads, but they could do it fine on paper and got good grades..

If someone has a strong understanding of math they'd be able to do it in their head without having to remember too many things and they wouldn't do it in their head the same way they would compute it on paper.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

backfire

bombed

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

They told me that since grade school they've been using calculators as the general rule. In fact, if they forgot to bring their calculator they would get their participation grade reduced for the day. They were discouraged from learning the basic arithmetic and were essentially forced to use a calculator during their studies......... this school is a Blue Ribbon School of Excellence

They may say it is, but no it's not. My son is in 3rd grade and could do any of the problems we've mentioned in this thread (on paper). Then he'd take the answer, add it back to the smaller number, and check to make sure he did it right.

I guess a NJ "Blue Ribbon School of Excellence" is just sub-par to a regular old new england public school.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

They may say it is, but no it's not. My son is in 3rd grade and could do any of the problems we've mentioned in this thread (on paper). Then he'd take the answer, add it back to the smaller number, and check to make sure he did it right.

I guess a NJ "Blue Ribbon School of Excellence" is just sub-par to a regular old new england public school.

NJ's public schools are quite good actually. Some of the best in the country in fact.

Test results are in: N.J. eighth-graders do it \"write\" | APP.com | Asbury Park Press

New Jersey's public school eighth-graders are tops in the nation when it comes to a national writing test.
The state's students had the highest scores of the 46 states that administered the National Assessment of Educational Progress test last year. Only students in Connecticut came close.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

NJ's public schools are quite good actually. Some of the best in the country in fact.

Test results are in: N.J. eighth-graders do it \"write\" | APP.com | Asbury Park Press

They can write well, but can they subtract well?

I'm sure some of them can, to be fair. It would be interesting to ask a bunch of younger kids how arithmetic is taught now, though.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

The need is deeper than a day to day usage. It's literally the language of the universe, at least as we understand it. Perhaps someday something even better will be invented, but for now it's the best we've got.

I think that the understanding of mathematics can lead to a better understanding of logic as well. Based on my experience in life, I can't emphasize the need for this understanding enough!

Again, you're confusing understanding with being able to do something entirely in your head on the fly like in the original situation.

I'm not disputing the need for people to have an understanding of mathematics, so I'm not sure why you keep repeating that.

Originally Posted by thewise1

I agree you can memorize anything you want, my point was that if you lack the understanding of why it is like that, you will be useless outside of the nice quick reference table that a multiplication table is.

Yeah, but it points out a key difference in memorization and knowledge.

Originally Posted by thewise1

My concern is that they can do it on paper using no calculator. If you can do that, you are likely able to do it in your head as well, even if it takes longer for some folks.

I am confused with what you mean here, the knowledge to solve a problem on paper without the use of a calculator is plenty sufficient to prove an ample understanding IMO.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Again, you're confusing understanding with being able to do something entirely in your head on the fly like in the original situation.

I'm not disputing the need for people to have an understanding of mathematics, so I'm not sure why you keep repeating that.



Yeah, but it points out a key difference in memorization and knowledge.



I am confused with what you mean here, the knowledge to solve a problem on paper without the use of a calculator is plenty sufficient to prove an ample understanding IMO.

I would say that if you have the understanding required to solve the original question on paper, you should be able to do it in your head.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by thewise1

They can write well, but can they subtract well?

I'm sure some of them can, to be fair. It would be interesting to ask a bunch of younger kids how arithmetic is taught now, though.

Oddly enough, my wife teaches 1st and 2nd graders and she teaches them a new sort of method for doing basic addition and subtraction in thier heads and it seems to work pretty well. They can add fairly large numbers in thier heads. I believe that this is the program that they use:
UCSMP: Everyday Mathematics