Questions about education

[JaJae]

I was going to put this in the speakeasy, but I figured I wanted some serious answers so I'm going to put it here. I'm a district manager of a small theater chain. I was talking to some employees today and decided to see if they could make change in their heads. So asked them all one at a time to make change on something like $21.37 out of a $50 bill. Out of the ten or so employees I asked, only one person could do it. Employee age ranges from 16 to 22. Half of them were just completely wrong, some even admitted they couldn't do it and didn't want to embarrass themselves with a response and the others were off by about dollar answering something like 29.63 or 29.73.

Now I understand different school districts have different standards and different means of educating math. But to me this is completely unacceptable. These kids go to one of the best high schools in NJ. It is a regional blue ribbon school in one of the top five wealthiest counties in America... and their students can't perform what I consider basic arithmetic in their heads. Is this normal?

I found this very disturbing and was curious to see if this was common throughout much of America.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

....and the others were off by about dollar answering something like 29.63 or 29.73.

That's being off by 10 cents, not a dollar.

You should be embarrassed.

and their students can't perform what I consider basic arithmetic in their heads. Is this normal?

Yes, it's normal. Believe it or not, subtracting two numbers is not interesting to a 16-22 year old. I'm not surprised at all that they couldn't do it, mainly because the don't care about doing it.

If you told them "I'll give you $10 if you can subtract $50 - $28.17" I guarantee 90% of them would have gotten it right.

[Simius]

Originally Posted by 7960

That's being off by 10 cents, not a dollar.

You should be embarrassed.

His example responses were off by a dollar and a $1.10.


(I did it in my head, then I had to get a calculator out to double check my math when I saw your post. )


On topic. I'd guess having calculators hurts people's ability to do math in their heads. Sure, they know how to do complex math problems and can write out all the steps. But that is all with the aid of calculators. If we want people to be able to do this we'd have to have a few tests or something where they can't use calculators. Then again, 7960 might be right. If you offered them some cash they might have cared enough to try and actually taken the 3 seconds necessary to give you the correct answer.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by 7960

That's being off by 10 cents, not a dollar.

You should be embarrassed.

Huh? Is this a trick question or something? I said they were off by about a dollar because they were typically off by a dollar or a dollar and ten cents.

Yes, it's normal. Believe it or not, subtracting two numbers is not interesting to a 16-22 year old. I'm not surprised at all that they couldn't do it, mainly because the don't care about doing it.

If you told them "I'll give you $10 if you can subtract $50 - $28.17" I guarantee 90% of them would have gotten it right.

They were put on the spot. They took it seriously because they thought it would reflect on my opinion of them as an employee if they could make change in their heads.

[northhunter]

Lo, these many, many years ago I can remember doing such problems over and over in I think 5th or 6th grade math. We had this fake store set up and we had to buy or sell things and make correct change. With the way modern tills or cash registers work today this skill isn't needed so much. It's all calculated for you you just enter the information and it tells you what you want to know, but you know this.
Should the average high school graduate be able to do such a problem? Yes, and given time I bet they could but it's simply not used regularly so it's not as easy as it would be for some of us who learned a different way.

[motivez]

I don't think it's that big of a deal to not be able to do it in your head tbh, what advantage is there to being able to do it in today's society?

If you asked them to do it on paper without the aid of a calculator and they were unable to do it I'd be far more concerned

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think it's that big of a deal to not be able to do it in your head tbh, what advantage is there to being able to do it in today's society?

If you asked them to do it on paper without the aid of a calculator and they were unable to do it I'd be far more concerned

Not all cash registers show what the cashier inputed to make the change or display what your change is. What if the cashier shorts you? You'd never know unless you could figure out the math.

And to be perfectly honest, two of them messed it up on paper. Only handful tried it on paper, maybe four or so. But I don't think that was conclusive of the whole. I would think most if not all of the rest of them could do it on paper.

I had one employee tell me she never learned long division and couldn't do it without a calculator. She was smart though, the smartest of the bunch. I gave her simple percentage problems to do in her head and she was able to do most of them. On national tests they do typically score better than the national average. But when it comes to the basics it just seems to be missing.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by northhunter

Lo, these many, many years ago I can remember doing such problems over and over in I think 5th or 6th grade math. We had this fake store set up and we had to buy or sell things and make correct change. With the way modern tills or cash registers work today this skill isn't needed so much. It's all calculated for you you just enter the information and it tells you what you want to know, but you know this.
Should the average high school graduate be able to do such a problem? Yes, and given time I bet they could but it's simply not used regularly so it's not as easy as it would be for some of us who learned a different way.

Yes every modern cash register will make change for you. But what if you're the shopper? Or what if you accidentally key in the wrong amount into the register? Say someone gives you $40, but you accidentally keyed in $400? How do you make change then? Not everyone can count their change up. What if you go shopping and a shirt you want is 15% off, how would you know if when it scanned they took the proper percentage off at the register? Not all receipts or registers show the difference.

I guess for me I can do these types of problems so I just can't imagine going through life not being able to. When I'm given a number and told to do simple arithmetic on it I can just see the answer in my head. When I go out and I'm bored I like to add up my items and then add the 7% sales tax and see if when I get to the register my answer is right. It's a little harder to calculate now that sales tax is 7% here though rather than 6% like it was a year ago. I can do this because when I can't sleep at night I stay up and give myself math problems to help me fall asleep. I don't expect everyone to be able to do this, but I assumed most 16-22 year olds could figure out how much change they should receive when purchasing items at a store.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Huh? Is this a trick question or something? I said they were off by about a dollar because they were typically off by a dollar or a dollar and ten cents.

I was kidding. "off by a dollar" and then 29.63 / 29.73...that's 10 cents... nevermind. it was funnier when I was drunk.

They were put on the spot. They took it seriously because they thought it would reflect on my opinion of them as an employee if they could make change in their heads.

False. They don't give a shit what you think about them as an employee.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by 7960

False. They don't give a shit what you think about them as an employee.

You would know?

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think it's that big of a deal to not be able to do it in your head tbh, what advantage is there to being able to do it in today's society?

If you asked them to do it on paper without the aid of a calculator and they were unable to do it I'd be far more concerned

imo, if people can't do simple math quickly in their heads (especially the type of stuff jajae asked them to do), then they're just asking to be given incorrect change or ripped off on purpose.

I ALWAYS do the math in my head, whenever I buy something or when I use cash or whatever. I generally know how much my bill is going to be long before the waiter/waitress jots it down on the ticket or enters it into the computer. Mistakes happen, people are human. But I shouldn't pay for someone's mistake and not paying attention and not being able to do the math quickly is guaranteeing that it will happen at some point.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes every modern cash register will make change for you. But what if you're the shopper? Or what if you accidentally key in the wrong amount into the register? Say someone gives you $40, but you accidentally keyed in $400? How do you make change then? Not everyone can count their change up. What if you go shopping and a shirt you want is 15% off, how would you know if when it scanned they took the proper percentage off at the register? Not all receipts or registers show the difference.

I guess for me I can do these types of problems so I just can't imagine going through life not being able to. When I'm given a number and told to do simple arithmetic on it I can just see the answer in my head. When I go out and I'm bored I like to add up my items and then add the 7% sales tax and see if when I get to the register my answer is right. It's a little harder to calculate now that sales tax is 7% here though rather than 6% like it was a year ago. I can do this because when I can't sleep at night I stay up and give myself math problems to help me fall asleep. I don't expect everyone to be able to do this, but I assumed most 16-22 year olds could figure out how much change they should receive when purchasing items at a store.

I can do them too, but it's not a huge deal for someone in the position of the cashier IMO.. which was who you asked. You didn't ask random people in the theatre whether or not they could do the math in their heads, which is how it would impact them

But for the purpose of their job, they don't really need to do it.

And really, I don't know many people who pay with cash for shit anymore to begin with.. I haven't carried cash around with me (except if I'm traveling) for years, I pay with my debit card for everything.. so I think the potential negative consequence is negligible in today's society

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

You would know?

No, I don't know. But as an employee I do know if my boss walked up to me and said "quick, what's change on a $32.35 charge if the guy gives you a $50?" the answer I gave wouldn't be a reflection of whether I cared about your opinion of me as an employee.

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

And really, I don't know many people who pay with cash for shit anymore to begin with.

I do.

[kombayn]

Originally Posted by 7960

I do.

I do too.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I found this very disturbing and was curious to see if this was common throughout much of America.

Yes!


And not just because they are stupid. They are not being taught how do simple math anymore. My friend has a teenage son who is an honor student. He was taking High School Algebra and Science classes when still enrolled in Middle School.

The other day a simple math question like yours came up and he fumbled for an answer. When we pointed out that he was Mr. Super Smart his reply was, and I quote "But I don't have my calculator."

They think simple math should all be done by machine!

[RMNIXON]

If you want to have some real fun go into some greasy sppon that has no calulator register. Lets say your order comes to $4.32 and you give them $5.07 and watch the confusion!

[motivez]

Originally Posted by 7960

I do.

And how many of those people are in the same age demographic that JaJae was talking about?

Older people I know do, including family, my mom, aunt, uncle, and so forth.. no one my age though really.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by motivez

And how many of those people are in the same age demographic that JaJae was talking about?

Older people I know do, including family, my mom, aunt, uncle, and so forth.. no one my age though really.

i use mostly cash