Polygamist children taken...

[7960]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Maybe this is obvious or stated in one of the news stories, but do none of these children have birth certificates? SSNs?

Were they all born outside of hospitals?

I guess it would make sense that they kept everything private, but I don't remember reading about it.

one of the articles talks about the women who have "valid birth certificates" wanting to skip DNA testing, but then the judge said it's too easy to fake a birth certificate

so I'm guessing many don't have SSNs or birth certificates since they talk about "the ones that do have a birth certificate"

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So now they are going to DNA test all 416 kids to determine whether sexual abuse took place.

That seems a concern to me. Once the government gets its hands on your DNA, they don't throw away the details, and these are supposed to be the victims.

Then that should be a successful crime deterrent.

There is nothing wrong with the government police agencies having your DNA in the computer. If you don't break the law, you won't have a problem. They're not "spying" on you in any way, shape, or form. Kind of like how you can be fingerprinted for pretty much anything, and then all that data can go into the system if your employer/questioner/etc so chooses.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

There is nothing wrong with the government police agencies having your DNA in the computer. If you don't break the law, you won't have a problem.

Is this sarcasm?

Please tell me you left off the sarcasm smiley.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

Is this sarcasm?

Please tell me you left off the sarcasm smiley.

I honestly don't have a problem with it.

There is a lot of information I don't want the government to have about me. DNA is not one of them.

Other than "libertarian principle," can you honestly articulate to me one reason why the government having your DNA in a computer is going to affect you in any way, shape, or form? Because I can't.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

I honestly don't have a problem with it.

There is a lot of information I don't want the government to have about me. DNA is not one of them.

Other than "libertarian principle," can you honestly articulate to me one reason why the government having your DNA in a computer is going to affect you in any way, shape, or form? Because I can't.

And if they wanted to put a GPS tracker in your car? Or put a chip inside you? Or put a camera in your living room, or even just on a pole at the end of your driveway, that could be turned on when they want? Or something as simple as requiring you to give the cops a key to your house? Or your login for your PC?

You wouldn't have a problem with those?

And before you say they're not the same thing, yes they are. Every one of those falls under "if you're not doing anything illegal then you have nothing to worry about." But that shits in the face of everything we're supposed to be about. We're presumed innocent. We have the right to privacy. The police are not supposed to assume we're guilty and do all this stuff to figure out a way to catch us.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

And if they wanted to put a GPS tracker in your car? Or put a chip inside you? Or put a camera in your living room, or even just on a pole at the end of your driveway, that could be turned on when they want? Or something as simple as requiring you to give the cops a key to your house? Or your login for your PC?

You wouldn't have a problem with those?

And before you say they're not the same thing, yes they are. Every one of those falls under "if you're not doing anything illegal then you have nothing to worry about." But that shits in the face of everything we're supposed to be about. We're presumed innocent. We have the right to privacy. The police are not supposed to assume we're guilty and do all this stuff to figure out a way to catch us.

They ARE different.

Yes, we have the right to privacy. So, let's say the gov had your DNA in a computer. Can they track you down by air or computer surveillance? No. Can they know where you are during the day? No. Can they inspect your possessions, search your belongings? No. Sift through your computer files? No. Watch your movements? No.

So I'm hard-pressed to say they're the same thing. How do you feel about the government having your fingerprints? If you've ever held a government job at any level, chances are they already do

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

So I'm hard-pressed to say they're the same thing. How do you feel about the government having your fingerprints? If you've ever held a government job at any level, chances are they already do

They do. I was a teacher and had to be fingerprinted before getting my license. I argued but was finally told essentially "do it or don't teach." I was also told they were just going to use the fingerprints to check against some list, then they were going to be discarded so that made me feel a bit better.

Then last year I had to have a criminal history check and found out my fingerprints were still in "the system."

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

They do. I was a teacher and had to be fingerprinted before getting my license. I argued but was finally told essentially "do it or don't teach." I was also told they were just going to use the fingerprints to check against some list, then they were going to be discarded so that made me feel a bit better.

Then last year I had to have a criminal history check and found out my fingerprints were still in "the system."

Once something is in the system, it hardly ever comes out. Not really any individual's fault, it's just the way the databases are set up

Does it anger you that they have your fingerprints? Make you nervous?

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Once something is in the system, it hardly ever comes out. Not really any individual's fault, it's just the way the databases are set up

And it's wrong.

Does it anger you that they have your fingerprints? Make you nervous?

Yes it angers me. There's no reason for them to have them. "Make you nervous" gets back to the "if you're not doing anything wrong..." thing and has nothing to do with this. Maybe I'm robbing banks and maybe I'm the 2nd coming of christ.......either way the govt doesn't need and shouldn't have my fingerprints since I've never been convicted of a crime.

So rather than you asking me why I don't like it how about instead you justify why they *should* have my fingerprints.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

And it's wrong.

Yes it angers me. There's no reason for them to have them. "Make you nervous" gets back to the "if you're not doing anything wrong..." thing and has nothing to do with this. Maybe I'm robbing banks and maybe I'm the 2nd coming of christ.......either way the govt doesn't need and shouldn't have my fingerprints since I've never been convicted of a crime.

So rather than you asking me why I don't like it how about instead you justify why they *should* have my fingerprints.

I never made the case, or even said, that they *should* have your fingerprints. I don't advocate getting fingerprinted when getting a driver's license or something. There's no active reason why they need to have your fingerprints in any of the various databases. When you work in a government job, they have every right to take your fingerprints, as you will be on their property, using their equipment, dealing with their taxpayers. You don't like having to get fingerprinted, don't take the job, as was the offer you were presented.

All I'm saying is that they already have your prints, they are not going anywhere, and there's not really anything wrong with that provided you don't do something stupid. It's never going to affect you in any way, shape, or form. No one is watching you or tracking you. No one really even cares that you exist until you give them reason to. So you can either go through the long, drawn-out, and expensive process of having your prints removed, or you can just live with the fact that the government has a completely meaningless piece of information about you which doesn't matter in the least until you commit a felony.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

.....or you can just live with the fact that the government has a completely meaningless piece of information about you which doesn't matter in the least until you commit a felony.

I could say the exact same thing about them putting a GPS in your car, and you seemed to have a problem with that.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

I could say the exact same thing about them putting a GPS in your car, and you seemed to have a problem with that.

Government being able to track your movements != Government finding info about you at a crime scene.

You can try all you want to show that they're the same thing; I don't buy it in the least.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Government being able to track your movements != Government finding info about you at a crime scene.

You can try all you want to show that they're the same thing; I don't buy it in the least.

It's just completely meaningless piece of information about you which doesn't matter in the least until you commit a felony.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

It's just completely meaningless piece of information about you which doesn't matter in the least until you commit a felony.

One allows you to be tracked at all times. One does not.

............

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Then that should be a successful crime deterrent.

There is nothing wrong with the government police agencies having your DNA in the computer. If you don't break the law, you won't have a problem. They're not "spying" on you in any way, shape, or form. Kind of like how you can be fingerprinted for pretty much anything, and then all that data can go into the system if your employer/questioner/etc so chooses.

The same piss poor logic used to justify warrantless searches, wiretaps, etc... you're using it here?

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by thewise1

The same piss poor logic used to justify warrantless searches, wiretaps, etc... you're using it here?

You're not being searched or followed or even NOTICED if your DNA is in a computer database somewhere.

The ONLY thing it could possibly be used for is to match DNA traces left at a crime scene. That's it. There is no other conceivable use. Why is this still a problem then?

Wire taps, warrantless searches, etc violate both the Constitution and your individual privacy. They can be used to find incriminating evidence of various activities, create trumped-up charges, and the like. The only thing your DNA can be used for is to match crime scene evidence. I can't state that enough. Given that that's the case, what's the danger?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

You're not being searched or followed or even NOTICED if your DNA is in a computer database somewhere.

The ONLY thing it could possibly be used for is to match DNA traces left at a crime scene. That's it. There is no other conceivable use. Why is this still a problem then?

Your identity, fingerprints, DNA, etc.. is still all of your personal information, why shouldn't they have to get a warrant? Or if you offer it for one use, destroy it after that use and get your permission or a warrant if they want it for some other use?

The argument that "Well, its only use is if it shows up at a crime, so don't commit a crime and you have nothing to worry about." is the same as "Well, they only use warrantless wiretaps against people involved in terrorism, so don't be involved in terrorism and you have nothing to worry about."

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by motivez

Your identity, fingerprints, DNA, etc.. is still all of your personal information, why shouldn't they have to get a warrant? Or if you offer it for one use, destroy it after that use and get your permission or a warrant if they want it for some other use?

The argument that "Well, its only use is if it shows up at a crime, so don't commit a crime and you have nothing to worry about." is the same as "Well, they only use warrantless wiretaps against people involved in terrorism, so don't be involved in terrorism and you have nothing to worry about."

I don't know why I'm the only person who sees a difference between the two.

It doesn't matter whether you are engaged in terrorism or not, someone is still listening to your phone calls. They may be hearing things you don't want anyone to hear, you may be having a personal conversation, you may even admit to using illegal drugs, etc. If they have your DNA....like I said, they have NO USEFUL INFORMATION ABOUT YOU until they find hair, blood, semen, etc. at a crime scene.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

I don't know why I'm the only person who sees a difference between the two.

You've already said why.......because *that* amount of an invasion of your privacy is ok with you.

It's not with me.




Would it be ok with you if the govt took DNA samples from every newborn and put it in a database?