Polygamist children taken...

[JaJae]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.

The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.

Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.

Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.

....

The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.

The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.

Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect

What do you think about this? I think 13 is waay to young for people to be pregnant and technically it's illegal depending on the ages of the males, but a lot of people outside the polygamist sects have children under 18 as well. I don't know the terms they decided to take the 400+ children on, but it definitely seems as if they violated people's rights. Even if they were doing something wrong I think they need proof that the individual family was before you put their children into state custody.

[Linzyhop]

well technically speaking, if they have their periods, they can get pregnant. i mean for hundreds of years (hell, probably thousands) parents waited for their daughters to "become women" before they could marry them off. and they were expected to start having children immediately.

given that, i can't imagine it being normal to have children 13 years of age being mothers on a regular basis this day and age...

mentally they're not up to it, at least in a modern sense.

[A_C_E]

I think women should be having sex (and getting pregnant if that's the result) as early as they want--I think statutory rape laws are complete bullshit.

At the same time, if it's a question of when and how the state can take children away from their parents....IMO, if the state can show neglect/abuse/whatever, it shouldn't matter if the parents are minors or not. If there's no evidence of troubled home life, the children shouldn't be taken, regardless of how young the parents are.

[thewise1]

I've met a lot of girls that had kids at a very young age - some as young as 13 - and none of them have had their kids taken away by the state.

I hope I understood the post correctly and apologize if I did not.

[WickedLou9]

I think the problem was that thee girls were given away in marriage to much older men and forced into having intercourse with them to produce children.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I think the problem was that thee girls were given away in marriage to much older men and forced into having intercourse with them to produce children.

But can the state come in and take all the children from their homes and put them into state custody without good reason? I think it needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

But can the state come in and take all the children from their homes and put them into state custody without good reason? I think it needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

Usually I think they come in and remove every child in a family unit if there's an allegation of abuse against one until they can investigate in order to protect any of the other children from retribution or further harm

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by JaJae

But can the state come in and take all the children from their homes and put them into state custody without good reason? I think it needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

I think that if the children were forcibly compelled to marry 45-year old men and bear their children, that constitutes a good reason. These girls very likely aren't ready to handle the responsibilities of childcare.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

Usually I think they come in and remove every child in a family unit if there's an allegation of abuse against one until they can investigate in order to protect any of the other children from retribution or further harm

Yes, but it's my understanding they went into the entire community and just took 400+ kids from their homes in one morning without any complaints or allegations against every single family.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes, but it's my understanding they went into the entire community and just took 400+ kids from their homes in one morning without any complaints or allegations against every single family.

They had a single anonymous complaint.

And from what teh news said tonight texas authorities are saying that may have been a hoax.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

They had a single anonymous complaint.

And from what teh news said tonight texas authorities are saying that may have been a hoax.

They had a lot more than a single anonymous complaint....numerous counselors from Child and Family Services spoke to numerous "residents" of the facility who attested to a number of illegal activities ongoing there. They had plenty of evidence to perform the seizures that they did.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

They had a lot more than a single anonymous complaint....numerous counselors from Child and Family Services spoke to numerous "residents" of the facility who attested to a number of illegal activities ongoing there. They had plenty of evidence to perform the seizures that they did.

Link to said evidence?

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Link to said evidence?

7960 posted a link to the affidavit for the arrest warrant in a previous thread. I'll see if I can find it and then re-link it.

edit: Texas Sect's Sick "Temple" - April 10, 2008

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Yes, but it's my understanding they went into the entire community and just took 400+ kids from their homes in one morning without any complaints or allegations against every single family.

Well, that is the complicated part, finding out who belongs to who.

Those poor women and children. I think its aweful how they have been treated. I mean, it's not like paradise, because women have fled because of the abuse.

It's sad that its been let to go this long, and the cheeks have been turned.

It's sadder because this has been passed through their families for generations, and it is so counter to what our culture holds, it is asking alot for the rest of the country to ignore a way of life that is so opposite of what the majority of others do.

They might want to consider something in a more tribal area, where this way of life isn't frowned upon? I don't know.

It's just sad to see those kids taken from the only homes they knew, the only way of life they knew, and how does the government negotiate the new reality for them? Can they?

[kombayn]

This is a very touchy subject, but when I look at these people and hear about this shit. It's basically auctioning off kids to child molesters and there's no two-ways about it in my head. I think the FBI handled this completely in the wrong way, why not arrest all the men who fit the mold of a child molester and figure out on a case-by-case basis if these children need to be taken away from their mothers too. Polygamy is a weird sick 'sect' in our United States and I'm glad the media is exposing this act to the world. It really shouldn't be tolerated. Now if the girls are around 16 and they consent, that's there choice but not 12, 13, 14 year old girls especially having to have sex with some perverted 45 to 50 year old man.

[thewise1]

So now they are going to DNA test all 416 kids to determine whether sexual abuse took place.

That seems a concern to me. Once the government gets its hands on your DNA, they don't throw away the details, and these are supposed to be the victims.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So now they are going to DNA test all 416 kids to determine whether sexual abuse took place.

That seems a concern to me. Once the government gets its hands on your DNA, they don't throw away the details, and these are supposed to be the victims.

[7960]

so was it a hoax? story link

and if it was, is it going to hurt Obama that Rozita Swinton is/was an obama state delegate?

El Paso County Democratic Party - obama delegate list

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So now they are going to DNA test all 416 kids to determine whether sexual abuse took place.

That seems a concern to me. Once the government gets its hands on your DNA, they don't throw away the details, and these are supposed to be the victims.

Are you against the DNA test itself or the retention of the data?

I don't see any other course of action for them to take, they have to what kids belong to what people before they can start sorting out this mess according to whatever the custody laws there

Personally (aside from the allegations of abuse and underage children being married, etc, which should be investigated), I don't think they should be forcing a specific model of what a family unit is..

If not everyone was abusive, would they still prevent say, 3 women, 1 man, and maybe 6 or 8 children from returning to live together? Or whatever?

[Phantom]

Maybe this is obvious or stated in one of the news stories, but do none of these children have birth certificates? SSNs?

Were they all born outside of hospitals?

I guess it would make sense that they kept everything private, but I don't remember reading about it.