Libertarians be upset! Pizza Hut Delivery Driver fired for defending himself!

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

Libertarians should not be upset, since, as has been stated, libertarians support the right of employers to set their own standards for hiring and employee conduct. If you don't like the rules, then you should just go work somewhere else. If enough people don't like the policy, they will have insufficient employees, insufficient customers, and the company will go out of business. That's how the fee market works, right?

An employer cannot legally tell you that you are forbidden to wear a cross under your shirt or to say a silent prayer.

An employer cannot legally tell you to refuse to speak to an emergency responder or law enforcement official.

An employer cannot legally tell you that you are disallowed from voting for a particular party or candidate.

An employer cannot legally tell you that you must not have an uncircumcised member.

An employer cannot legally tell you that you cannot carry a concealed weapon.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

An employer cannot legally tell you that you cannot carry a concealed weapon.

Why not?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Why not?

I think his analogies are pretty good, but you're right in that it happens anyway...

[motivez]

What's illegal about a company setting a policy for its employees about carrying a weapon while on the clock?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by motivez

What's illegal about a company setting a policy for its employees about carrying a weapon while on the clock?

That's what I meant to ask if it came off wrong. I don't see anything illegal about it at all.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by JaJae

That's what I meant to ask if it came off wrong. I don't see anything illegal about it at all.

It is illegal because it violates the bill of rights.

I realize that the governments do not see it that way.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It is illegal because it violates the bill of rights.

I realize that the governments do not see it that way.

The Bill of Rights doesn't say

"A well run Company, being necessary to the economy of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If you take the libertarian reading of the 2nd Amendment, it's imposing restrictions on the government being able to pass laws infringing upon the right to own weapons, not restricting business from imposing restrictions on employees who've chosen to work for them.

As part of the contract you entered by agreeing to perform a job for the company, you've agreed not to carry a weapon while on the clock. You signed it in good faith, should the company not be allowed to enforce the contract?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It is illegal because it violates the bill of rights.

I realize that the governments do not see it that way.

It's not even legal for everybody to carry a firearm let alone on the job. You have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean you can go to your job and start saying whatever you want. He has his freedom to carry his firearm, but Pizza Hut also has their freedom to not employ him for doing so.

[7960]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It is illegal because it violates the bill of rights.

I realize that the governments do not see it that way.

So your argument is that he should be able to carry a gun because the feds and the state passed an unconstitutional law?

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by 7960

So your argument is that he should be able to carry a gun because the feds and the state passed an unconstitutional law?

It is my position that the right to bear arms is a federally protected right and that preventing the discrete carry of personal protection is equivalent to ordering an employee to be silent to a tending physician, demanding that an employee vote a particular way, or forbidding an employee to pray to the god of their choice.

[7960]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It is my position that the right to bear arms is a federally protected right and that preventing the discrete carry of personal protection is equivalent to ordering an employee to be silent to a tending physician, demanding that an employee vote a particular way, or forbidding an employee to pray to the god of their choice.

So I should be able to carry a gun into a courtroom?
And I should be able to carry a gun into my workplace?
And I should be able to carry a gun into my neighbor's house?

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by JaJae

It's not even legal for everybody to carry a firearm let alone on the job. You have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean you can go to your job and start saying whatever you want. He has his freedom to carry his firearm, but Pizza Hut also has their freedom to not employ him for doing so.

An employer can demand that a worker not display/utter obscenities or unprofessional language.

An employer cannot demand a worker to lie, vote a certain way or obstruct the officials.

By the logic of 'civil rights', Pizza Hut cannot refuse to employ him because of his race, religion or political expression.... so the arbitrary law lovers don't have a leg to stand on with this issue :-)

[kombayn]

Originally Posted by 7960

So I should be able to carry a gun into a courtroom?

That's a bit extreme. Don't you think? Court-rooms have metal detectors anyway.

And I should be able to carry a gun into my workplace?

A delivery driver keeps his gun in the car, as for the workplace, if it permits it inside. Why not? But most people who work in an office wouldn't do that.

And I should be able to carry a gun into my neighbor's house?

If your neighbor says it's OK. That's private property, so that could be considered intrusion if you have the intent to harm.

Really, all you're doing is using extreme case examples, where anyone with common sense wouldn't do something that dumb.

Now here's my rebuttal, the cops are put in risk with criminals, so are security services (where a majority in CA are allowed to carry guns), so why should a pizza delivery driver with a proper carrying license not be able to carry a gun on him (obviously hidden from the customer)?

When a pizza delivery drivers life is put into jeopardy they should be able to protect themselves from criminals (most likely crack-heads or tweakers) who are trying to get money for their drugs.

I still think it's a really bad policy from Pizza Hut, but it is their business. So I'll vote with my dollars and buy from my local pizza shop instead of getting their twister crust. Not when I know that a delivery driver who's just trying to make an honest living isn't allowed to protect himself from a criminal. If he would've been killed, what would've been Pizza's Hut response to the family? "Oh sorry, we don't allow our employees to carry legal firearms because we're afraid of what the public might say." It makes them come off shallow and disillusioned with the threats these employees face for the small amount of income they earn.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

It is my position that the right to bear arms is a federally protected right and that preventing the discrete carry of personal protection is equivalent to ordering an employee to be silent to a tending physician, demanding that an employee vote a particular way, or forbidding an employee to pray to the god of their choice.

Sorry, don't buy it. I also don't see how this view is in line with libertarian beliefs about business and the free market. If their policy is so unpopular, no one will want to work for them, and people wont buy their goods, forcing them to change the policy or go out of business.

How is it acceptable, for example, in another thread, for a business to say "We don't hire blacks", but not for them to say "If you want to work with us, you can't carry a gun while in the performance of your duties"?

Why doesn't the logic from that paragraph about a free market correction apply to this as well?

I don't think you've made a case that it's unconstitutional for a business to impose those restrictions given your previous position on other issues similar to this.. and the fact that it's entirely different than praying to god or whatever, I think your comparisons are completely off the mark.

[RockPusher]

Originally Posted by 7960

So I should be able to carry a gun into a courtroom?

Yes.... and the court would be safer for it.

And I should be able to carry a gun into my workplace?

Yes, and your customers and coworkers would benefit from your doing so.

And I should be able to carry a gun into my neighbor's house?

If your neighbor does not approve, then no... that would be the height of rudeness.

But this touches on a deeply held belief of mine that regarding issues where no person is injured by actions, morality should restrain us, not laws.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kombayn

If your neighbor says it's OK. That's private property

And a business isn't private property?

[kombayn]

I know a business is private property, but when a delivery driver is only carrying the gun in his car, that's his property. I'm not saying he should be allowed to carry it inside the Pizza Hut, I'm saying he should be allowed to carry it on him when he's making a delivery since he's walking around public area's and putting himself in danger with criminals roaming around (they're an easy target for quick cash and bread sticks :P). If he's not entering someone's house with it, he's not breaking a law. He should be allowed to protect himself. And in the second reply to a quote I said, if an office permits a person to carry a firearm in the office that's fine, if not, then keep it away and Pizza Hut (PepsiCo) are technically a traded company in the public through Wall Street.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by RockPusher

An employer can demand that a worker not display/utter obscenities or unprofessional language.

That's not true at all. As an employer I can limit my employee's speech on basically anything. I can even give them scripts to say and if they deviate at all I can terminate them. I can say no discussion of such and such on the job and I'd be perfectly within my rights. You absolutely do not have the right to say whatever you want on the job. The employer can limit your speech.

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

And a business isn't private property?

why do people not see this?