The flawed ideology of Conservatism

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

In 1953 we didn't have the same economy that we do today. Unskilled labor back in the 40's and 50's acutally paid OK. Today we pay mexicans next to nothing to do those jobs.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There are very VERY few mexican Lumberjacks in northern Maine. I don't know what lumberjacks are paid but my cousin who carries a chainsaw every day and has 2 kids and wife who doesn't work just paid around $350k for a house so he must be doing ok.

The sorts of jobs we have available today for a kid with no skills will virtually guarantee that the kid remains in poverty forever.

Again, false. I had no skills and poured concrete for 3 years while I saved money to go to college.

Like Tank said, "The only thing holding these people down are themselves."

blah blah blah, being poor sucks, being rich means everything is handed to you, blah blah blah

So I'm back to my earlier suggestion. When people have kids, if they don't have the financial means to provide for them then the state should take the kids away to make sure the delinquent parents don't perpetuate their shittiness. Yes?

[kombayn]

No government should take their kids away from them for financial reasons. Especially if we don't know the reason why they're in financial hardship. Plus it would be devastating for the children. Just because you don't have money doesn't mean you're not a good parent.

[TankRizzo]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, toooooo! [/judge smails]

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There are very VERY few mexican Lumberjacks in northern Maine. I don't know what lumberjacks are paid but my cousin who carries a chainsaw every day and has 2 kids and wife who doesn't work just paid around $350k for a house so he must be doing ok.

Again, false. I had no skills and poured concrete for 3 years while I saved money to go to college.

Like Tank said, "The only thing holding these people down are themselves."


So I'm back to my earlier suggestion. When people have kids, if they don't have the financial means to provide for them then the state should take the kids away to make sure the delinquent parents don't perpetuate their shittiness. Yes?

And that's why nothing ever changes. You and the other people like you are only concerned about how much stuff you can accumulate and god help anyone who gets in the way of your quest. Helping others who are less fortunate then you? Screw that. I don't care about anyone else other than me. let's do away with every charity on the planet, damn beggars, because those people who take charity are just lazy. Lets get rid of the red cross and haven from hunger. Lets close all the soup kitchens and free clinics. Instead we can tell them all to get a job! After all, these people woudln't need charities to help them if they weren't so damn lazy. It's easy!

You know why you are like that? Because you are lazy. It's easier, much easier, to just blame other people for thier situation. It's hard to think about these problems. They are complicated and deep rooted. But if all you have to do is shrug it off and blame the poor for being poor, well shit that's easy. You don't even have to put any effort into it. It's actually no different than the people you lament who blame the system for thier situation and don't try at all to get out of poverty. They are using the same bullshit line of reasoning that you are. Hey there is nothing I can do, I'll just accept things the way they are and blame outside influences for everything that is wrong. It's so damn easy.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

but for the most part, being rich or poor has more to do with how and where you were raised, the quality of schools you went to, the amount of intelligence you were born with, and many other factors including....luck (being at the right place at the right time)

I won't deny these have some bearing on the situation but anyone can choose to rise above their situation.

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

And that's why nothing ever changes. You and the other people like you are only concerned about how much stuff you can accumulate and god help anyone who gets in the way of your quest. Helping others who are less fortunate then you? Screw that. I don't care about anyone else other than me. let's do away with every charity on the planet, damn beggars, because those people who take charity are just lazy. Lets get rid of the red cross and haven from hunger. Lets close all the soup kitchens and free clinics. Instead we can tell them all to get a job! After all, these people woudln't need charities to help them if they weren't so damn lazy. It's easy!

I am in 100% support of private organizations geared to helping people. It's when you don't even give me a choice in the matter and just TAKE the money from me in the form of even more taxes, that's when I take offense. I pay enough in taxes already. Then throw in the governments inability to properly manage money and deter abuse of the systems, I'm not such a fan.

You know why you are like that? Because you are lazy. It's easier, much easier, to just blame other people for thier situation. It's hard to think about these problems. They are complicated and deep rooted. But if all you have to do is shrug it off and blame the poor for being poor, well shit that's easy. You don't even have to put any effort into it. It's actually no different than the people you lament who blame the system for thier situation and don't try at all to get out of poverty. They are using the same bullshit line of reasoning that you are. Hey there is nothing I can do, I'll just accept things the way they are and blame outside influences for everything that is wrong. It's so damn easy.

How is this the government's fault or responsibility? People are afforded so many opportunities in this country, why is it my fault that they don't take advantage of these opportunities? Why should I have to finance their mediocrity? Just because some kid in west Philly isn't afforded the SAME opportunities that Bill Gates' kids doesn't mean he has zero opportunity. My kid isn't going to have the same opportunities either and it's ridiculous to think that they would...or SHOULD.

It's not laziness, it's the real world and it shouldn't be safety padded for people and funded by the government.



So, again, what's holding these people down? Just one example, that's all I'm asking.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

And that's why nothing ever changes. You and the other people like you are only concerned about how much stuff you can accumulate .....

WRONG.

I'll proudly admit I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. That is so fucking godawful wrong I stopped right there.

I give more to charity now than I made when I was a teacher. I co-founded a fucking school for god's sake. I, and people like me, are more common than you think. You believe the govt has to take it so it'll go to someone who *really* needs it. Fuck that. I should be allowed to give it to whomever I wish. Don't tell me nothing changes because I'm only concerned with what I can accumulate. What I'm concerned about is the govt taking my money and giving it to people because they think they "need" when really what they "need" is a kick in the ass.

Tax me and build roads, make missiles, pay cops, clean rivers......whatever, that's what the govt is supposed to do. But when you tax me so Raymond, my white, fat, lazy son of a bitch piece of shit cousin can sit on his ass and collect a check then it's STEALING from me. Guess why he manages his weight so he stays just heavy enough to not be required to go back to work.....he does it because he'd rather be fat and home than thinner and back to work. And he does it because he knows he'll get a check. Take the fucking checks away.

And a while ago when I was watching the news and there was this woman on, angry about some change in in welfare. She kept saying "Where's my check?! Where's my money?!" NO you fucking douche that's MY money! And I don't want it going to you. I want to decide where it goes and who benefits from it.

Fuck, now I'm pissed.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

You know why you are like that? Because you are lazy. It's easier, much easier, to just blame other people for thier situation. It's hard to think about these problems. They are complicated and deep rooted. But if all you have to do is shrug it off and blame the poor for being poor, well shit that's easy. You don't even have to put any effort into it. It's actually no different than the people you lament who blame the system for thier situation and don't try at all to get out of poverty. They are using the same bullshit line of reasoning that you are. Hey there is nothing I can do, I'll just accept things the way they are and blame outside influences for everything that is wrong. It's so damn easy.

OH MY FUCKING GOD

I figured it wasn't right to ignore the rest of your post so I read it. If you were in front of me, honestly, I'd smack you right in the face.

What's easy is to expect a check for doing nothing. It's easy to say "the man is keeping me down" and point the finger at someone else for your lot in life. What's not easy is realizing it's nobody's business but yours how your life turns out, so if you want something you damn well better get off your ass and do it yoruself.

What's also not easy is to co-found a 1-8 school teaching 90+ kids when the govt keeps taking my money. What's not easy is continuing to fund the scholarship I give to some kids at the school where I taught. What's not easy is to buy most of the equipment for another year for a local high school team that I don't even have a kid playing on.

Before you call me lazy and think I'm sitting around rolling in my gold coins thinking "fuck the poor kids" how about you learn a little bit about who you're talking to. My bitch is not that they're taking my money, it's that they're taking it and giving it to people who I woudln't give it to. So how about you whip out your checkbook and buy christmas presents for that west Philly kid you keep talking about? I did for a local family last year and am going to again this year. Wait, nevermind. I'm not going to ask you to give to the charity I support even though you have no problem sticking your hand in my pocket and dishing out my money how you see fit.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

OH MY FUCKING GOD

I figured it wasn't right to ignore the rest of your post so I read it. If you were in front of me, honestly, I'd smack you right in the face.

What's easy is to expect a check for doing nothing. It's easy to say "the man is keeping me down" and point the finger at someone else for your lot in life. What's not easy is realizing it's nobody's business but yours how your life turns out, so if you want something you damn well better get off your ass and do it yoruself.

What's also not easy is to co-found a 1-8 school teaching 90+ kids when the govt keeps taking my money. What's not easy is continuing to fund the scholarship I give to some kids at the school where I taught. What's not easy is to buy most of the equipment for another year for a local high school team that I don't even have a kid playing on.

Before you call me lazy and think I'm sitting around rolling in my gold coins thinking "fuck the poor kids" how about you learn a little bit about who you're talking to. My bitch is not that they're taking my money, it's that they're taking it and giving it to people who I woudln't give it to. So how about you whip out your checkbook and buy christmas presents for that west Philly kid you keep talking about? I did for a local family last year and am going to again this year. Wait, nevermind. I'm not going to ask you to give to the charity I support even though you have no problem sticking your hand in my pocket and dishing out my money how you see fit.

Well whoop de do for you. You have found yourself in a bit of a contradiction. You won't give help to the poor because it's thier fault that they are poor.. oh but unless you get to choose which poor lazy family you are going to help. I don't understand what makes one OK and the other NOT OK. If you are OK with giving money by any means to the poor than your entire arguement thus far has been a lie. You actually DO believe that people need help and that not all people are in bad situations because they are stupid or lazy. You just don't like living in a society in which we have representation that might decide to spend money on something you don't agree with. Your problem is with the democracy within which we all live, and has nothing to do with issues of personal responsibility as you have been trying to sell me on all along. So which is it? Are you against helping the poor because they are lazy or are you against the government helping the poor because you don't get to control where the money goes?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

WRONG.

I want to decide where it goes and who benefits from it.

Fuck, now I'm pissed.

So it's a control issue then. What happened to the fact that the poor are lazy and have plenty of opportunity to succeed but simply choose not to take the chances they are given?

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

I am in 100% support of private organizations geared to helping people.

People are afforded so many opportunities in this country, why is it my fault that they don't take advantage of these opportunities?

Why should I have to finance their mediocrity?


So, again, what's holding these people down? Just one example, that's all I'm asking.

Your first statement and the rest of them seem contradictory. You are just like the others. You only care about controlling the money, you don't really truly believe that no one deserves help.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Well whoop de do for you. You have found yourself in a bit of a contradiction. You won't give help to the poor because it's thier fault that they are poor.. oh but unless you get to choose which poor lazy family you are going to help. I don't understand what makes one OK and the other NOT OK.

Thanks for not reading my post.

My bitch is not that they're taking my money, it's that they're taking it and giving it to people who I woudln't give it to.

There is no contradiction in anything I've said. From the beginning I've said I believe it's my responsibility to give. What I don't believe is in someone else deciding where it goes. How is that a contradiction? I've said it 9 different ways.........the govt going in your house and taking your tv, the govt going in your wallet and taking your money, the govt going in your checkbook and writing checks for you. That's bullshit.

If you are OK with giving money by any means to the poor than your entire arguement thus far has been a lie. You actually DO believe that people need help and that not all people are in bad situations because they are stupid or lazy.

I didn't say they're that way because they're stupid or lazy. I said if they want to change their situation then they need to get off their asses.

You just don't like living in a society in which we have representation that might decide to spend money on something you don't agree with.

My problem is when someone else comes and takes my money to give to someone I don't agree with.

Are you against helping the poor because they are lazy or are you against the government helping the poor because you don't get to control where the money goes?

I'm against people being FORCED to give. Period.

[A_C_E]

I'm going to try and stay out of this, but I want to note one interesting thing:

Did anyone else around here ever notice that ALL the people who claim wholeheartedly that "anyone can rise above their poor circumstances in America" all have their own hero story about how they "rose above"? "I joined the military and learned a trade" "I poured concrete for three years so I could go to college", etc. And then these same people say, "look at me, obviously it can be done since I did it."

I just want to point out the severely flawed logical reasoning that goes into saying "because I did this, someone else can obviously do it too."

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

I didn't say they're that way because they're stupid or lazy. I said if they want to change their situation then they need to get off their asses.

How can you possibly say these are different things?

"They're not poor because they're lazy, they're poor because they 'choose not to get off their asses and help themselves.' "

.........................

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Your first statement and the rest of them seem contradictory. You are just like the others. You only care about controlling the money, you don't really truly believe that no one deserves help.

How exactly are they contradictory? I just want to control MY money.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't understand what makes one OK and the other NOT OK.

Some people will do something with the help they receive. Others will squander it. I haven't done anything as noble as 7960 but in my experience helping family members and friends and some folks that I barely knew by offering them a place to stay for virtually free in seattle, help finding jobs, getting educations, etc, this has been 100% true.

No one is against charity. We're against forced charity to people who won't use it, thus wasting resources that other people could make use of to produce something with their time.

[TankRizzo]

DAMN THOSE GREEDY CONSERVATIVES!!!!!!


Bleeding Hearts but Tight Fists

• Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

• Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

• Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

• Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

• In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

• People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

DAMN THOSE GREEDY CONSERVATIVES!!!!!!


Bleeding Hearts but Tight Fists

Out of curiosity, do you know if this study counts money given to churches/faith-based organizations as 'charitable contributions'? I can't tell.

This would clearly be a balancing factor, as left-leaning people have given far less money, on average, to religious organizations in the past 30 years.