The flawed ideology of Conservatism

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by thewise1

No one is against charity. We're against forced charity to people who won't use it, thus wasting resources that other people could make use of to produce something with their time.

There you go, thats the whole issue right there....

I'm all about charity, but FORCING charity is absurd, and a direct violation of my property rights. I give to charity because I choose to, forcing it through some bloated and inefficient government program is absurd.

While I'll be the first to say we do need a social safety net, the net is really a hammock at this point which discourages people from earning more money or opening checking/savings accounts etc.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

The number of people who remain in poverty if born into poverty is VASTLY larger than the number of people born into poverty who move into a higher socioeconomic class.

This is simply fact and cannot be disputed. Draw your own conclusions.

bop

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

How exactly are they contradictory? I just want to control MY money.

In one breath you said that poor people don't deserve your help because they should essentially pull themselves up by thier own boot straps, then in the nest breath you said you are ok with helping the poor so long as you control where the money goes.

[thewise1]

For those of you who consider us stingy, I urge you to donate any unused income to the federal government. Nothing stops you from writing a bigger check, and they will gladly accept your donation.

But none of you will, because either you're not well off enough to do so and want those of us who are to do it because it's not your money, or you're smart enough to know that doing so would be retarded... but still want us to do so.

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

In one breath you said that poor people don't deserve your help because they should essentially pull themselves up by thier own boot straps, then in the nest breath you said you are ok with helping the poor so long as you control where the money goes.

If people want to give to charities, I'm all for that. You act as if this is black and white and you can only want to help people or not want to help people.

My personal belief is that welfare programs do nothing but keep people in poverty and the democratic party is more than happy to sit on that donkey and dangle the carrot in front of them to keep them in the voting booths. The programs themselves are set up to foster dependency on the programs. Take housing assistance for example, if you make under X amount of money you are eligible to live in said housing, but the moment you make OVER X (be it working more hours or getting a raise), you lose your funding and with your meager raise or more hours you put in it's not enough to cover the actual rent. I've known people who have quit jobs or asked for their hours to be cut so they could remain in these apartments.

I bet you've also pushed hard for a timetable for withdrawl from Iraq saying that these people need to stand on their own two feet. Same difference except one doesn't have a bunch of extremists waiting to run in and slaughter everyone once the assistance is gone.

You might need to work two jobs and go to night school or enlist in the military, but the point to all of this is that EVERYONE has the OPPORTUNITY. There is no anchor keeping them in poverty other than people telling them that they can't do anything for themselves.




again, GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF AN ABLE BODIED PERSON WHO CAN NOT BETTER THEMSELVES.

[kombayn]

I have to disagree with WickedLou, whose to tell me what to do with my money? There are already these wasteful tax programs in place to take my wages and spread them out however they see fit, they do it to everyone else too. Whoopi on the View a week or so ago, was bitching how because she makes more money she gets taxed more but she thinks there should be fair tax (not the proposed fair tax, just everyone pays the same amount like a flat tax). She wants her money too. If you want to donate to charity, then by all means do it. They'll spend the money better than the government, they actually want to help people.

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

I just want to point out the severely flawed logical reasoning that goes into saying "because I did this, someone else can obviously do it too."

What you call "flawed logic" I call "evidence of the fact that it's very possible."

There's nothing special about me. I'm average intelligence, average looks, average height. I come from a middle-of-the middle-class home that didn't have extra money for "all the stuff my friends had."

It would be flawed if I said "because I did it *EVERYONE* can do it." I'd never make that blanket generalization. But I do wholeheartedly say two things:

1. IMO more people can make it than try to make it
2. If anything the flawed logic is in YOUR post. You said I said "anyone" can make it. I did not.

[7960]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Some people will do something with the help they receive. Others will squander it. I haven't done anything as noble as 7960....

I'm flattered but it's not noble. It's what I can do and IMO it's my responsibility to do it. BUT I do not believe the govt should be taking my money to give to people........even if they'd do the exact same thing with it.

.... but in my experience helping family members and friends and some folks that I barely knew by offering them a place to stay for virtually free in seattle, help finding jobs, getting educations, etc, this has been 100% true.

You're a good person.

No one is against charity. We're against forced charity ....

You could have stopped right there.

[7960]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

DAMN THOSE GREEDY CONSERVATIVES!!!!!!


Bleeding Hearts but Tight Fists



• Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

I gave in Windham today!

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by 7960

I gave in Windham today!

What's really funny is when you go look at Obama and Al Gore's charitable donations

[7960]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

What's really funny is when you go look at Obama and Al Gore's charitable donations

Gore gives a SHITLOAD of money to charity................his charity..............that does stuff for him.............that he gets a salary from...............and a tax deduction for.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by kombayn

I have to disagree with WickedLou, whose to tell me what to do with my money? There are already these wasteful tax programs in place to take my wages and spread them out however they see fit, they do it to everyone else too. Whoopi on the View a week or so ago, was bitching how because she makes more money she gets taxed more but she thinks there should be fair tax (not the proposed fair tax, just everyone pays the same amount like a flat tax). She wants her money too. If you want to donate to charity, then by all means do it. They'll spend the money better than the government, they actually want to help people.

So you catagorically disagree with all taxation then? Since you don't get a direct say in where each dollar goes?

By the way, you DO get a say. It's called voting.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by 7960

Gore gives a SHITLOAD of money to charity................his charity..............that does stuff for him.............that he gets a salary from...............and a tax deduction for.

#12 Non-Profit Organizations « Stuff White People Like

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

I'm flattered but it's not noble. It's what I can do and IMO it's my responsibility to do it. BUT I do not believe the govt should be taking my money to give to people........even if they'd do the exact same thing with it.

You're a good person.

You could have stopped right there.

I don't understand. You don't have a problem with taxes in general do you? I mean no one LIKES to pay taxes but most of us understand that it's a necesary evil. Your arguement started off that you don't believe in charity because poor people need to take personal responsibility for thier own lives and make themselves not be poor. They don't/shouldn't need our handouts. They have opportunities to make themselves better. You said that. Then you said that you are OK with charity which is contradictory to your first argument. Then you changed your "issue" to be your lack of discretion in where the money you pay in taxes goes... which is another false leap of logic because you do get a say, and it's called voting. So you have a say and you believe in charity. So what's the issue??

[7960]

Originally Posted by A_C_E

#12 Non-Profit Organizations « Stuff White People Like

I just want to point out the severely flawed logical reasoning that goes into saying, "It is a known fact that white people make up 95% of non-profit organizations" but doesn't give any statistics to back it up.

[kombayn]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So you catagorically disagree with all taxation then? Since you don't get a direct say in where each dollar goes?

By the way, you DO get a say. It's called voting.

Alright, Captain. I do vote, but it doesn't mean it always breaks my way and yes, you're right. I don't agree with taxation. Especially when it's garnishing my wages for social security, which I have no interest in paying into and being garnished for Medicad.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't be getting high-jacked by the government and I could use that money to invest more into CDs, Money Markets, Stocks, Bonds and other interest earning items so I could in turn spend the money on a Free Market so it'll help an economy grow, which in turn creates more jobs and will help people get out of poverty because they're able to get jobs that are out there.

But no, lets just take my money, give it to a bunch of old farts who play this silly game of politics and act as if they know what to do with MY money... Sure, I'm all for it because it "works so well."

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by kombayn

Alright, Captain. I do vote, but it doesn't mean it always breaks my way and yes, you're right. I don't agree with taxation. Especially when it's garnishing my wages for social security, which I have no interest in paying into and being garnished for Medicad.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't be getting high-jacked by the government and I could use that money to invest more into CDs, Money Markets, Stocks, Bonds and other interest earning items so I could in turn spend the money on a Free Market so it'll help an economy grow, which in turn creates more jobs and will help people get out of poverty.

But no, lets just take my money, give it to a bunch of old farts who play this silly game of politics and act as if they know what to do with MY money... Sure, I'm all for it because it "works so well."

I think the disagreement with taxation in and of itself is an entirely different discussion.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't understand. You don't have a problem with taxes in general do you? I mean no one LIKES to pay taxes but most of us understand that it's a necesary evil. Your arguement started off that you don't believe in charity.........

No it did not.

You may have incorrectly interpreted me saying "I want to keep what I earned" as meaning I don't believe in charity but you're wrong. I want to keep it.......I don't want the govt to take it and decide for me where it goes. *I* want to decide what happens with it.

They have opportunities to make themselves better. You said that.

Because they do. What's your point?

Then you said that you are OK with charity which is contradictory to your first argument.

Only because you jumped to a conclusion that was wrong.

Then you changed your "issue" to be your lack of discretion in where the money you pay in taxes goes... which is another false leap of logic because you do get a say, and it's called voting. So you have a say and you believe in charity. So what's the issue??

I can't think of any other way to say it so I'll just scroll back and copy/paste:

• No one is against charity. We're against forced charity ....
• IMO it's my responsibility (to give to charity). BUT I do not believe the govt should be taking my money to give to people
• Tax me and build roads, make missiles, pay cops, clean rivers......whatever, that's what the govt is supposed to do. But when you tax me so Raymond, my white, fat, lazy son of a bitch piece of shit cousin can sit on his ass and collect a check then it's STEALING from me.
• I give...I gave...I bought...i funded... (and btw, I did all that with AFTER TAX money, so the argument that "if I wasn't taxed there'd be no social programs" is stupid)
• From the beginning I've said I believe it's my responsibility to give. What I don't believe is in someone else deciding where it goes.
• I'm against people being FORCED to give. Period.

I'll take some responsibility for *some* of the confusion. When I said "My bitch is not that they're taking my money, it's that they're taking it and giving it to people who I woudln't give it to." I should have said "My bitch is not that (some percent of my money is going to charity), it's that they're taking it and giving it to people who I woudln't give it to."

I make $30,000 per year. The feds take $4,500 and do shit with it. Whatever the amount is that goes to "social programs" I think I should not have had to give. BUT, I also would probably have turned around and given around that amount to a charity of my choosing.

[Dispatcher]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

You are twisting what I say based on your own preconcieved notions. I hate it when people spout crap about stealing. No one is stealing anything from anyone. If you don't like the governmental policies of the US, move to another country that better suits you. If you stay here and vote for your elected representatives, than it's not stealing. Stealing is taking without permission. As long as you have representation in congress, than it's not stealing.
Your analogy about TV's is stupid to be frank and I don't think it deserves a response.

If you have been to China town in any major US city... than you know full well that