The flawed ideology of Conservatism

[Dispatcher]

Republican candidates were falling all over themselves trying to prove each was more conservative than the other. This is like several people saying they each believe more in the tooth fairy.
In the end, it really doesn't matter because many of the basic core beliefs of conservatives are just wrong...not as in morally wrong, but as in incorrect.
Conservatives actually believe that the poor deserve to be poor and the rich deserve to be rich.
They believe the poor are poor because they are lazy and have no ambition, and the rich are rich because they worked hard to make something of themselves.
Now of course there are lazy people that are poor and there are hard working people that are rich, but for the most part, being rich or poor has more to do with how and where you were raised, the quality of schools you went to, the amount of intelligence you were born with, and many other factors including....luck (being at the right place at the right time)
This flawed concept that the poor deserve to be poor is important in understanding why Republicans want to cut social programs in favor of tax cuts that mostly benefit the wealthy.
Take my wife, she has many medical issues and is disabled for life. She wants to work but can't. She gets $375 a month (yes, a month) from Social Security to live on. And yet if Republicans had their way, she would not get that. What was her crime? Why does she deserve to be poor? Because she has arthritis and a degenerative back disease?

Then there is the other great mantra of Conservatives everywhere....we need less regulation in business and industry.
This is based on the false belief that if left alone, corporations will do the right thing.
But companies like Exxon, Enron, Qwest, and many, many others have shown that this isn't true.
In fact, every regulation on the books is in response to a problem caused by companies doing the WRONG thing, be it child labor, unsafe working conditions, dumping toxic waste, scamming investors or whatever.
Then there is the belief that somehow we have a mandate by God to spread Democracy all over the world....by any means, and that any issue can be solved by enough bombs and bullets.
That idea is working real well in the Middle East, isn't it?

And finally, conservatives still don't get it that gay people don't "choose" to be gay.
I'm straight, so I have no agenda in saying that. It is just the facts.

I realize I will be accused of lumping all conservatives together, and to be fair, not all conservatives believe everything I have stated.

Also to be fair, I have some issues with my fellow liberals, too.
Children should be raised to know right and wrong, be taught manners and responsibility for there own actions, and be taught compassion for other people.
And while I don't think abortion should be banned, I think it should be restricted to one per woman per lifetime, because abortion is simply wrong....not for any religious reasons, but for ethical reasons.

Well, that is my rant (or my soapbox, as my daughter says).
I won't change any minds, but it's high time someone spoke up and told the truth.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

Conservatives actually believe that the poor deserve to be poor and the rich deserve to be rich.

No they don't. They believe that each person deserves to keep what he's worked for.

Take my wife, she has many medical issues and is disabled for life. She wants to work but can't. She gets $375 a month (yes, a month) from Social Security to live on. And yet if Republicans had their way, she would not get that. What was her crime? Why does she deserve to be poor? Because she has arthritis and a degenerative back disease?

I'm sorry your wife's situation has made you bitter but that's no reason to take from the people who can work and force them to give to you. Because that's what you're saying...........she can't work so she can't help with the expenses so *YOU* want everyone else to give *YOU* her share.

That makes as much sense as giving part of my son's grade to the kid who sits next to him "because he's not that smart."

some of this middle stuff

I agree with parts of it.

And while I don't think abortion should be banned, I think it should be restricted to one per woman per lifetime, because abortion is simply wrong....not for any religious reasons, but for ethical reasons.

It's "wrong" but you get a freebie. I'm going to smash my neighbor's skull in and try to use that as a logical reason why I shouldn't get thrown in jail. "But officer, even though it's wrong I should get to do it ONCE before I get arrested for it!"

It's either wrong or it's not. A woman can have exactly none or as many as she sees necessary. I have yet to find any "ethical" reason why she should be allowed *one* but no more.

Well, that is my rant....... it's high time someone spoke up and told the truth.

The truth? You mean *YOUR* truth. Because I think at least half of what you're talking about is repugnant.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

No they don't. They believe that each person deserves to keep what he's worked for.

I'm sorry your wife's situation has made you bitter but that's no reason to take from the people who can work and force them to give to you. Because that's what you're saying...........she can't work so she can't help with the expenses so *YOU* want everyone else to give *YOU* her share.

That makes as much sense as giving part of my son's grade to the kid who sits next to him "because he's not that smart."


I agree with parts of it.

It's "wrong" but you get a freebie. I'm going to smash my neighbor's skull in and try to use that as a logical reason why I shouldn't get thrown in jail. "But officer, even though it's wrong I should get to do it ONCE before I get arrested for it!"

It's either wrong or it's not. A woman can have exactly none or as many as she sees necessary. I have yet to find any "ethical" reason why she should be allowed *one* but no more.

The truth? You mean *YOUR* truth. Because I think at least half of what you're talking about is repugnant.

I think there is actually a pervasive thread amoungst alot of conservatives that people who are poor must somehow deserve it because of bad choices they made or lack of hard work. More often then not I think that is false. If you are poor it's probably because you were born into a poor family in a poor area. If you are born to rich parents in a rich area you have every advantage in the world and you will probably end up doing OK for yourself. If you have every disadvantage you probably won't be well off in your lifetime. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they are exceptions. The wealthy who do not give back to the society which allowed them to become rich in the first place are just as much freeloaders as is the person who chooses to be lazy and live off of welfare.

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I think there is actually a pervasive thread amoungst alot of conservatives that people who are poor must somehow deserve it because of bad choices they made or lack of hard work. More often then not I think that is false. If you are poor it's probably because you were born into a poor family in a poor area. If you are born to rich parents in a rich area you have every advantage in the world and you will probably end up doing OK for yourself. If you have every disadvantage you probably won't be well off in your lifetime. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they are exceptions. The wealthy who do not give back to the society which allowed them to become rich in the first place are just as much freeloaders as is the person who chooses to be lazy and live off of welfare.

...and that is neither the country or any political party's fault. You are afforded every opportunity in the world in this country and if you're a woman or minority, you are given even more benefits/breaks. Some people are born rich, others poor, that's life, but you are by no means STUCK there.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I think there is actually a pervasive thread amoungst alot of conservatives that people who are poor must somehow deserve it because of bad choices they made or lack of hard work.

There might be. But there's also a pervasive thread that realizes trying to address the "problem" involves stealing from people who have, just to give to people who don't. You have three TVs and I have one.......that means the govt should go in your house and take one to give to me?

More often then not I think that is false. If you are poor it's probably because you were born into a poor family in a poor area. If you are born to rich parents in a rich area you have every advantage in the world and you will probably end up doing OK for yourself. If you have every disadvantage you probably won't be well off in your lifetime. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they are exceptions.

The key is OPPORTUNITY. Explain how chinese immigrants get off the boat not speaking english and within a generation they have a business and a nice home and their kids are at the top of their grade, while others are content to stay just fat enough to claim disability and collect a check.

Yes that was a huge stereotype. But it's also one I see way too much.

The wealthy who do not give back to the society which allowed them to become rich in the first place are just as much freeloaders as is the person who chooses to be lazy and live off of welfare.

Nobody else deserves Paris Hilton's money.

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

...and that is neither the country or any political party's fault. You are afforded every opportunity in the world in this country and if you're a woman or minority, you are given even more benefits/breaks. Some people are born rich, others poor, that's life, but you are by no means STUCK there.

werd

I'm sick of the liberal whine "but it's not *FAIR* that my neighbor's dad made more than mine so I can't have what he has!"

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

...and that is neither the country or any political party's fault. You are afforded every opportunity in the world in this country and if you're a woman or minority, you are given even more benefits/breaks. Some people are born rich, others poor, that's life, but you are by no means STUCK there.

It's no ones "fault" but it's everyones responsibility. It's our responsibility to ensure that every human being gets the opportunity to be successful. The poor do not get more benefits than the rich. They might have several government programs that are targeted at helping the poor but even with those programs, the wealthy have ten fold the number of advantages/opportunities.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It's no ones "fault" but it's everyones responsibility. It's our responsibility to ensure that every human being gets the opportunity to be successful.

And every human being has the opportunity to be successful.

The rich having *more* opportunities doesn't mean the poor have fewer, or none. I'm really not understanding your point here...........how does someone not making as much money as you make it ok to take your money and give it to that other person?

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It's no ones "fault" but it's everyones responsibility. It's our responsibility to ensure that every human being gets the opportunity to be successful. The poor do not get more benefits than the rich. They might have several government programs that are targeted at helping the poor but even with those programs, the wealthy have ten fold the number of advantages/opportunities.

That's where you're wrong, if I don't pay my bills, it's MY responsibility, not your's. Everyone DOES have the opportunity to be successful. Immigrants come here with nothing more than the shirt on their backs and wind up doing quite well for themselves. Any reasoning you give for someone who hasn't been successful is nothing more than an excuse.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

There might be. But there's also a pervasive thread that realizes trying to address the "problem" involves stealing from people who have, just to give to people who don't. You have three TVs and I have one.......that means the govt should go in your house and take one to give to me?

The key is OPPORTUNITY. Explain how chinese immigrants get off the boat not speaking english and within a generation they have a business and a nice home and their kids are at the top of their grade, while others are content to stay just fat enough to claim disability and collect a check.

Yes that was a huge stereotype. But it's also one I see way too much.

Nobody else deserves Paris Hilton's money.







werd

I'm sick of the liberal whine "but it's not *FAIR* that my neighbor's dad made more than mine so I can't have what he has!"

You are twisting what I say based on your own preconcieved notions. I hate it when people spout crap about stealing. No one is stealing anything from anyone. If you don't like the governmental policies of the US, move to another country that better suits you. If you stay here and vote for your elected representatives, than it's not stealing. Stealing is taking without permission. As long as you have representation in congress, than it's not stealing.
Your analogy about TV's is stupid to be frank and I don't think it deserves a response.

If you have been to China town in any major US city... than you know full well that it's overwhelmingly poor. Are there wealthy families that do make it big? Sure. They are the exceptions.

This has nothing to do what-so-ever with who has more stuff, as you conservatives so quaintly like to boil it down to. If only it were that simple.
This has nothing to do with whether or not Paris hilton should give ME her money or anyone else. This has to do with the society we live in and how we want that society to work. You're right, the key work is opportunity. But the simple fact is that everyone does NOT have the same opportunities given to them, and not everyone has the same obstacles to over come. It's not anyones fault, I'm not trying to blame anyone for this inequity. If you can atleast recognize the reality of the sitution that opportunity is NOT equal in our society then you can work to correct that problem. Yes sometimes we will have to have taxes. That means we all have to chip in to make our society better. Again, that's not stealing by any stretch.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

That's where you're wrong, if I don't pay my bills, it's MY responsibility, not your's. Everyone DOES have the opportunity to be successful. Immigrants come here with nothing more than the shirt on their backs and wind up doing quite well for themselves. Any reasoning you give for someone who hasn't been successful is nothing more than an excuse.

It must be nice to live in your fantasy world where everyone is equal and everyone has the benefit of living in a safe home with 2 parents and a good education. Everyone has family around them, a support system, and help when they need it.

It's not an excuse, it's reality. You go talk to some kid in west Philly and ask him if he has all the same chances and opportunity as some rich white kid in Haddonfield, NJ. I gurantee he will laugh in your face.

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It must be nice to live in your fantasy world where everyone is equal and everyone has the benefit of living in a safe home with 2 parents and a good education. Everyone has family around them, a support system, and help when they need it.

It's not an excuse, it's reality. You go talk to some kid in west Philly and ask him if he has all the same chances and opportunity as some rich white kid in Haddonfield, NJ. I gurantee he will laugh in your face.

So, what exactly are these unsurmountable hurdles in his life that's holding some random kid in west Philly down other than motivation? There's nothing preventing him from going to college, joining the military, starting his own business, learning a valuable trade/skill, etc. and so forth. NOTHING.

They don't have the SAME opportunities, but they both have plenty of opportunity.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

If you can atleast recognize the reality of the sitution that opportunity is NOT equal in our society then you can work to correct that problem.

I've already said opportunity is not equal, but the idea that we can work to correct the problem is retarded. There is no possible way to equalize opportunity. Some people are smarter.....should we dumb-down school to the lowest common intelligence so everyone has equal opportunity? Some people are better looking.....should we require every job interview to be done from behind a curtain so the interviewer doesn't know if the candidate is hideous?

The list goes on and on..........there can NEVER be equal opportunity. What we have is a shitload of opportunity but that doesn't mean everyone has access to everything.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TankRizzo

So, what exactly are these unsurmountable hurdles in his life that's holding some random kid in west Philly down other than motivation? There's nothing preventing him from going to college, joining the military, starting his own business, learning a valuable trade/skill, etc. and so forth. NOTHING.

They don't have the SAME opportunities, but they both have plenty of opportunity.

I don't really see a point in arguing this. All we are going to do is tell eachother we are wrong.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

I've already said opportunity is not equal, but the idea that we can work to correct the problem is retarded. There is no possible way to equalize opportunity. Some people are smarter.....should we dumb-down school to the lowest common intelligence so everyone has equal opportunity? Some people are better looking.....should we require every job interview to be done from behind a curtain so the interviewer doesn't know if the candidate is hideous?

The list goes on and on..........there can NEVER be equal opportunity. What we have is a shitload of opportunity but that doesn't mean everyone has access to everything.

So because we can never totally equalize opportunity, we shouldn't work to make it as equal as we possibly can?

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't really see a point in arguing this. All we are going to do is tell eachother we are wrong.

Personal example time.............in 1953 (maybe '54) my dad had a choice of going in the woods and chopping wood for a living or joining the military. That was basically it. He enlisted and used the time to learn a skill. He eventually did very well for himself.

Is that opportunity not afforded to a kid from west Philly today?

On the contrary, a kid from west Philly have MORE opportunities today. He may not believe it but that's a failure of parenting, not society. Do you think we should take babies from people in west Philly so we can make sure they grow up knowing they have more opportunities than their parents?

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So because we can never totally equalize opportunity, we shouldn't work to make it as equal as we possibly can?

we should remove obstructions to opportunity, but there is no way we can afford the same opportunities to a kid from west Philly as we can a kid born with the last name Hilton or Kennedy or Rockefeller.

[TankRizzo]

Originally Posted by 7960

Personal example time.............in 1953 (maybe '54) my dad had a choice of going in the woods and chopping wood for a living or joining the military. That was basically it. He enlisted and used the time to learn a skill. He eventually did very well for himself.

Is that opportunity not afforded to a kid from west Philly today?

On the contrary, a kid from west Philly have MORE opportunities today. He may not believe it but that's a failure of parenting, not society. Do you think we should take babies from people in west Philly so we can make sure they grow up knowing they have more opportunities than their parents?

I can give dozens of personal examples of people making something of themselves. The only thing holding these people down are themselves. They have a myriad of opportunities to better their lives.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960