Why fear evolution?

Dispatcher · 04-23-2008, 01:26 AM

Evolution seems to scare some people. Some people just deny the science of it. Yet there is as much evidence for evolution as there is for the idea that the Earth is not flat.
Evolution simply means change over time. Everything changes. The climate changes, the geology of the earth changes, we change as human beings over the short time span of our lives.
To deny evolution is to deny that there are mutations. Mutations are everywhere, from cancer cells to 3 legged chickens. And the mutations that work the best survive and reproduce. The ones that don't work die out. Natural selection. (that's why you don't see many 3 legged chickens)
This does not mean there can't be a God. Though I am an atheist, I also believe that we as humans don't know everything, don't see everything, and that anything is possible. Even if it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible and the Koran was rubbish, it still would not rule out the possibility of a higher spiritual power.
So why do some people fear the concept of evolution?
I would rather know the truth...even if I find the truth unpleasant or contradictory of my beliefs.

Kytro · 04-23-2008, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

I would rather know the truth...even if I find the truth unpleasant or contradictory of my beliefs.

The problem is religion is really meme and is successful by muscling out competing ideas, regardless of source. Religion couldn't work sucessfully without faith which is in opposition to reason.

up|dn · 04-24-2008, 01:33 AM

It is generally only fundamentalist Christians who fear and deny evolution.

Most of us have had some experience interacting with religious fundamentalists, and we understand that one of the problems with fundamentalists is that they have no perspective on themselves. They never recognize that their way of thinking is just one of many other possible ways of thinking, which may be equally useful or good. On the contrary, they believe their way is the right way, everyone else is wrong; they are in the business of salvation, and they want to help you to see things the right way. They want to help you be saved. They are totally rigid and totally uninterested in opposing points of view. In our modern complex world, fundamentalism is dangerous because of its rigidity and its imperviousness to other ideas.

When you have a group of people who already believe they have the only Truth there is, they're not interested in anything different, especially not if it means a major shift in thinking.

7960 · 04-24-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

Evolution seems to scare some people. Some people just deny the science of it. Yet there is as much evidence for evolution as there is for the idea that the Earth is not flat.

Please stop saying this.

There is 100% factual unquestionable proof that the earth is not flat. Are you saying there is 100% factual unquestionable proof of the kind of evolution you're saying people "fear"?

Evolution simply means change over time. Everything changes. The climate changes, the geology of the earth changes,

Evolution is also the name of the engine in my motorcycle but I'm not going to post about that because THAT'S NOT THE KIND OF EVOLUTION YOU MEAN.

If you're going to discuss it at least have some integrity about it. If you walked up to the most hardcore creationist and said "I define evolution as "change over time" so do you agree that humans evolve during their lives because we change over time?" they're probably going to agree. But that's not the evolution they "fear" (your word) so the entire conversation would have been useless.

...we change as human beings over the short time span of our lives.

Needs to be specified again.......you're using a different meaning of evolution.

Though I am an atheist, I also believe that we as humans don't know everything, don't see everything, and that anything is possible. Even if it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible and the Koran was rubbish, it still would not rule out the possibility of a higher spiritual power.

You're not an athiest.

motivez · 04-24-2008, 10:48 AM

People fear things that potentially have the ability to invalidate their religion.. if you believe God created man instantly with the snap of his fingers or whatever, then there's no possible way we could have evolved from earlier primates

I know there are quite a few Christians who see God's hands at work in the process of evolution though, that God was the one who set the process in motion, etc..

If I was an actively practicing Christian, I'd have to take that path.

up|dn · 04-24-2008, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

You're not an athiest.

The whole post was funny, but this part cracked me up. Are you his father or something?

7960 · 04-24-2008, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by up|dn

The whole post was funny, but this part cracked me up. Are you his father or something?

Even if it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible and the Koran was rubbish, it still would not rule out the possibility of a higher spiritual power

That's pretty much the textbook definition of agnostic.

7960 · 04-24-2008, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

I know there are quite a few Christians who see God's hands at work in the process of evolution though, that God was the one who set the process in motion, etc..

Evolution doesn't address this, and doesn't even try to.

The people who "fear" evolution are the ones who believe we were put here in this form and haven't changed.

motivez · 04-24-2008, 11:39 AM

I know it doesn't, I'm saying some Christians have embraced the science behind it and see God's hands in it.

motivez · 04-24-2008, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

That's pretty much the textbook definition of agnostic.

There's several different levels of atheism, I was talking with Dumpy about this the other day..

If I remember right, the jist of it is that not all atheists proclaim with certainty that there is no God, they just choose to live life in a way that doesn't have God involved in it.

7960 · 04-24-2008, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

There's several different levels of atheism, I was talking with Dumpy about this the other day..

If I remember right, the jist of it is that not all atheists proclaim with certainty that there is no God, they just choose to live life in a way that doesn't have God involved in it.

Then someone has to update his definitions, and it very well could be me. But from my perspective, if someone says he's atheist then he doesn't believe there is a god, if someone's agnostic then he's not sure if there's a god, if someone's (some kind of) theist then he believes there is (some kind of) god, and if he's dyslexist then he believes there is a dog.

Anyway, if the definitions have changed then I stand corrected. But I really don't like that someone can say he's choosing "to live life in a way that doesn't have God involved in it" and call himself atheist. IMO if he's atheist then he's living that way because there is no god, or if he's choosing to live like there is god but acknowledges he really doesn't know then he's agnostic.

Dispatcher · 04-24-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Then someone has to update his definitions, and it very well could be me. But from my perspective, if someone says he's atheist then he doesn't believe there is a god, if someone's agnostic then he's not sure if there's a god, if someone's (some kind of) theist then he believes there is (some kind of) god, and if he's dyslexist then he believes there is a dog.

Anyway, if the definitions have changed then I stand corrected. But I really don't like that someone can say he's choosing "to live life in a way that doesn't have God involved in it" and call himself atheist. IMO if he's atheist then he's living that way because there is no god, or if he's choosing to live like there is god but acknowledges he really doesn't know then he's agnostic.

If you don't mind, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself.
I personally don't believe in God, however one can not be 100% sure there is or isn't a higher power because it can never be proven one way or the other.
I do, however, believe in a spiritual realm, but don't believe you must have one in order to have the other.
It is not, however, my disbelief in some god that leads me to believe in evolution...it the large quantity of scientific evidence.
As far as using our own life span as an example of evolution. That was an example of short term evolution. I am fully aware that it is the long term evolution that scares or is denied by devout religious people.
Even when I WAS a Christian, I tried to keep an open mind.

up|dn · 04-25-2008, 12:01 AM

Reading this now: Amazon.com: The Evolution-Creation Struggle: Michael Ruse: Books

Maybe I'll have some valuable insights when I'm done.

7960 · 04-25-2008, 06:21 AM

Then use the right word.

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

If you don't mind, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself.
I personally don't believe in God, however one can not be 100% sure there is or isn't a higher power....

Like I said maybe the definitions have changed, but last I checked "one can not be 100% sure there is or isn't a higher power" is agnostic.

As far as using our own life span as an example of evolution. That was an example of short term evolution.

But that's not evolution.

Scrum · 04-25-2008, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by 7960

Then use the right word. Like I said maybe the definitions have changed, but last I checked "one can not be 100% sure there is or isn't a higher power" is agnostic.

Richard Dawkins was on Bill Maher a couple weeks ago and he said something like "On a scale of 1-7 (1 being positive there is a god, 7 being positive there isn't) he would be a 6.9. One can't be absolutely sure of anything, especially a scientist who is constantly searching for new data to refine their theories.

ohh found the video.

YouTube Video

7960 · 04-25-2008, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Scrum

Richard Dawkins was on Bill Maher a couple weeks ago and he said something like "One a scale of 1-7 (1 being positive there is a god, 7 being positive there isn't) he would be a 6.9. One can't be absolutely sure of anything, especially a scientist who is constantly searching for new data to refine their theories.

ohh found the video.

[yt]DRmedaIWBp0[/YT

Dispatcher, what's your number on the 7pt scale?

Rhianann · 06-14-2008, 01:46 AM

Science is based on fact. Religion is not. If it's not totally proven then it's a "theory". I do believe they still refer to it as the theory of evolution. It's the most logical explanation so far.

Kytro · 06-17-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Rhianann

Science is based on fact. Religion is not. If it's not totally proven then it's a "theory". I do believe they still refer to it as the theory of evolution. It's the most logical explanation so far.

Nothing in science is totally proven, ever. That is because science is based on observation

Rouger2 · 06-17-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

Nothing in science is totally proven, ever. That is because science is based on observation

If I remember right science does have its laws which are suppose to totally provable not like theories which are not totally provable.

Kytro · 06-17-2008, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rouger2

If I remember right science does have its laws which are suppose to totally provable not like theories which are not totally provable.

Not exactly.

From Wiki, emphasis added:

The laws of science are various established scientific laws, or physical laws as they are sometimes called, that are considered universal and invariable facts of the physical world. Laws of science may, however, be disproved if new facts or evidence contradicts them. A "law" differs from hypotheses, theories, postulates, principles, etc., in that a law is an analytic statement, usually with an empirically determined constant. A theory may contain a set of laws, or a theory may be implied from an empirically determined law.