Does anyone here actually think it's good that oil companies have to defend profit?

[Smull]

Wow, this whole thing really sprang up over night here... I tried to catch up by reading the first 2 and last 2 pages so I apologize if I reiterate a point, or ask a question thats already been answered.

Originally Posted by Spideynw

And there is no evidence that natural monopolies harm the economy or can be sustained. They can only continue to exist so long as the offer the best product at the lowest price.

I'm almost positive even Adam Smith said that monopolies were bad and should be prevented.

That said I can see both sides, on one hand a company went out, bought oil, refined it, and delivered it to a local pump for you, its not your gasoline its theirs and they should be able to charge what they want for it.

But the oil problem is a societal problem as well, our society is set up where we are dependent on oil (I think it was Motivez that compared it to water on the first page) to completely forgo oil is almost akin to exiling one's self from society (as per Spideynw and his Amish anology) Therefore despite my mostly libertarian views I feel that the "energy crisis" is something we have to tackle as a society. We should start as lew suggested by stop giving favors to the oil companies, and also by investing heavily in RESEARCHING alternatives like biofuel, hydrogen, and hybrid/eclectic etc...

I think that punishing the oil companies is the wrong approach (particularly while we're still doing them such huge favors), I also think its the wrong approach for the gov't to decide that we need to use a shitload of ethanol.

[Smull]

Oh, btw Motivez, I heard you say that your going to college right now, and your location reads Greensboro, do you happen to know a guy by the name of Scott Snyder who went there last year? I realize its a big school and all but thought I'd give it a shot anyway.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by lew

We also go to war to secure pipelines for oil. We do not do that for food.



We do a LOT more for Big Oil than we do for Big Food. Though, we do a lot for Big Food as well.

Well yes, but we don't have to go to war for food. We have so much of it here in this country that we actually pay farmers to let some of thier fields lie fallow for a season. Then we even export the food we don't use. We export quite a bit of it actually.

[Stylerod]

It seems oil companies aren't the only ones excited about higher gas prices...

The watchdog Civic Federation says that on a $4 gallon of gas, the total tax is 79.2 cents. That compares to 77 cents in Los Angeles and 65 cents in New York City.

"Every time the price of gas goes up, the tax goes up with it," said one motorist.

And that, of course, is exactly the point for the politicians. Gov. Blagojevich, for example, is counting on the high price of gasoline to bring at least an extra $220 million in the State Treasury in the fiscal year that begins this July. Most of that will be used to balance the way-out-of-balance budget.

cbs2chicago.com - Truth In Politics: Illinois Gas Prices And Taxes

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

It seems oil companies aren't the only ones excited about higher gas prices...

How is that? I thought that the state gas tax was a fixed amount? The federal gas tax is like 18 cents a gallon, no matter what the underlying price is. I am pretty sure the NJ gas tax works like that as well. Seems to me like it would decrease revenue because people will buy less gas.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

How is that? I thought that the state gas tax was a fixed amount? The federal gas tax is like 18 cents a gallon, no matter what the underlying price is. I am pretty sure the NJ gas tax works like that as well. Seems to me like it would decrease revenue because people will buy less gas.

I guess in IL it's not a fixed amount. They have 10 levels of taxation on gas. Holly hell I'm glad I don't live there anymore!

[JaJae]

Here's Maxine Waters threatening to Socialize the oil industry and have the government take over all oil companies.

Video "Waters oil" | sevenload

This is just getting scary.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here's Maxine Waters threatening to Socialize the oil industry and have the government take over all oil companies.

Video "Waters oil" | sevenload

This is just getting scary.

She's a fucking joke and no one takes what she says seriously.

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here's Maxine Waters threatening to Socialize the oil industry and have the government take over all oil companies.

Video "Waters oil" | sevenload

This is just getting scary.

Thats worked well in other countries

Freakin' lunatics are going to destroy this nation with their socialist power grabs.


holy shit what a fuckup by her...."socializing......" long pause she realized she fucked up, what an idiot, she should be voted out and all the idiots like her have no business and i mean NO business runing this country what a laughable idiot. She let the cat out of the bag that she's a socialist, hopefully this will bite her ass off next election cycle.

[Spideynw]

Originally Posted by Smull

I'm almost positive even Adam Smith said that monopolies were bad and should be prevented.

Even if he did, there is no evidence that natural monopolies are bad.

But the oil problem is a societal problem as well,

Garbage. This argument is a slippery slope argument. I could use the same argument for food, employment, housing, transportation, etc., etc. You just do not understand how the market works.

our society is set up where we are dependent on oil (I think it was Motivez that compared it to water on the first page) to completely forgo oil is almost akin to exiling one's self from society (as per Spideynw and his Amish anology) Therefore despite my mostly libertarian views I feel that the "energy crisis" is something we have to tackle as a society. We should start as lew suggested by stop giving favors to the oil companies, and also by investing heavily in RESEARCHING alternatives like biofuel, hydrogen, and hybrid/eclectic etc...

I do agree that the oil industry should not get special tax breaks, just because it is the oil industry. But government investment into alternative energy solutions is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. If it was cost effective, the market would already be investing in the research. And it would be ten times more efficient at researching it than the government is. Do you realize how much of the money allocated to energy "research" would be diverted to bureacratic pockets or other people? Do you have any idea how bad of a job the government would do at researching alternative solutions?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Here's Maxine Waters threatening to Socialize the oil industry and have the government take over all oil companies.

Video "Waters oil" | sevenload

This is just getting scary.

This is like watching a live action version of atlas shrugged

[thewise1]

I hope that if they socialize the oil companies, that the oil companies burn it all.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Well yes, but we don't have to go to war for food. We have so much of it here in this country that we actually pay farmers to let some of thier fields lie fallow for a season. Then we even export the food we don't use. We export quite a bit of it actually.

This is also one of the reasons Africa is in such dire shape.. I remember reading about how we sell our excess food so cheaply that it's impossible for farmers there to make a profit growing and selling their own stuff locally.. so there hasn't really been any build up in that industry, and when prices spike it hurts them a lot because they've gotten so accustomed to buying it from us

[thewise1]

Not that silence infers support, but I'd sure feel a lot better if the folks that support them defending their profits at least spoke up against this nationalization bs :\

[Smull]

Originally Posted by Spideynw

Garbage. This argument is a slippery slope argument. I could use the same argument for food, employment, housing, transportation, etc., etc. You just do not understand how the market works.

Food? Really? You wouldn't want the government to step in at some point even if there was some kinda of severe food crisis?

Originally Posted by Spideynw

I do agree that the oil industry should not get special tax breaks, just because it is the oil industry. But government investment into alternative energy solutions is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. If it was cost effective, the market would already be investing in the research. And it would be ten times more efficient at researching it than the government is. Do you realize how much of the money allocated to energy "research" would be diverted to bureacratic pockets or other people? Do you have any idea how bad of a job the government would do at researching alternative solutions?

I agree, the government is terrible at doing most things, but I still think it has a role to play here. While its not ideal that government invest in it as opposed to private firms, right now there simply isn't much incentive for private firms to research alternatives. Sure people bitch about the gas prices, but until it gets REALLY bad they're still gona drive SUVs and run to the mall for no reason etc... The bad part is that once the situation gets bad enough to really force a change it may be too late and significant damage to our economy may already have been done.

I did read something today that seemed like an excellent idea to me though, from Andrew Sullivan (The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan)

If the evidence emerges that our carbon dependence is both damaging our environment and empowering our enemies, then change is necessary. But an elaborate cap-and-trade government monitored and imposed scheme is not appealing; or a government-engineered switch to biofuels (unintended consequences). A clear, solid carbon tax that simply encourages individuals and companies to innovate and switch to renewable energy would be a conservative solution. Simple, transparent, and targeted correctly with a minimal growth in government power. If fiscal circumstances permit, you can balance such a tax hike by lowering income tax or providing safety-net subsidies to those most in need as a result.

This is the best idea I've heard so far, it just serves as a guide or to jump start the market, but it doesn't really try to control it.

[thewise1]

Yet another tax should never be the 'conservative' solution

[Smull]

Well the 'conservative' solution for the past 8 years has been to cut taxes while increase spending, and thats been doing wonders for us. If the government has a role to play in this some tax hike will likely be needed, we're simply too far in debt not to. IF you believe that government should have no hand in fixing this problem, then no tax hikes are needed.

I wish that people in the Republican Party would realize that there's more to conservatism than low taxes, Jesus, and waterboarding at Gitmo

btw, nationalizing the oil companies is a terrible idea, not even worth considering by the members of our legislature.

Originally Posted by Smull

I wish that people in the Republican Party would realize that there's more to conservatism than low taxes, Jesus, and waterboarding at Gitmo

btw, nationalizing the oil companies is a terrible idea, not even worth considering by the members of our legislature.

fucking DOT

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by thewise1

In our capitalist society, which is not without flaws, the one thing that has driven us to accomplish so much is profit, both personal and corporate.

Yes, but not just fiscal profit. Certainly it is an effective tool, but it would be a mistake to view fiscal rewards as the motivator that always produces the best outcome. In fact I would go as far as saying that money will not make one happy (though lack of it certainly will make one unhappy).

Originally Posted by thewise1

Corporate profit not only enriches shareholders, it creates jobs, enriches its employees, and if they are profiting, provides an obviously valuable service to the people of this nation.

It can do so, no doubt - but that does not always mean that a profit will always cause this to be true. The money for profit has to come from somewhere, and that source is consumers. When consumers are compelled by circumstance to purchase a product, a large profit enriches a smaller number of people at the expense of a larger group. While such success is not a bad thing by nature, when it starts lower the standard of living for a significant number of people the bad may outwiegh the good.

Originally Posted by thewise1

Yet, here we have our senators making companies testify on how they are justified in doing the only thing they exist for. Saying "Don't you have a conscience?" to people who have executed their job well. Thinking it's logical to compare a CEO's pay to someone who can't afford the $4/gallon gas.

That is politics, and while a company can profit, they can only do so if the people of the nation allow them to. There is no right to sell goods and profit from them.

Originally Posted by thewise1

Can any of you who actually support this articulate why a company should bother staying in business when well educated, 'intelligent' lawmakers of this country are out to loot everything they do successfully?

Most big companies are making profit and will continue to do so. Even if the government curtails some of it to look good, they will stay profitable until the business itsle fis no longer sustainable (such as lack of oil).

My position is I do not support governmental interference in trade for any reason other than safety.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Smull

Well the 'conservative' solution for the past 8 years has been to cut taxes while increase spending, and thats been doing wonders for us. If the government has a role to play in this some tax hike will likely be needed, we're simply too far in debt not to. IF you believe that government should have no hand in fixing this problem, then no tax hikes are needed.

That's not being conservative, that's being neo conservative (for lack of better words - I hate throwing around buzzwords as much as anyone else).

I wish that people in the Republican Party would realize that there's more to conservatism than low taxes, Jesus, and waterboarding at Gitmo

btw, nationalizing the oil companies is a terrible idea, not even worth considering by the members of our legislature.

I tried to make a giant dot but the font wouldn't go high enough. I'm with you though.