Gas Prices- blame game

nbiggershaft · 05-21-2008, 05:44 PM

So I just got back home from school and am pretty disgusted by my friends and family lately. We'll be driving around town and see gas at around $4, and they will say something like, damn Bush. Or, we need someone to stand up to the oil companies. So many people that I otherwise respect are either leftist idiots deadset on blaming Exxon and Bush or rightwing idiots deadset on blaming environmentalists and blah blah blah. It's not possible that we are just encountering the real price of gasoline?

People can have boats and cars and big houses in the country all they want. But, I don't understand how they think gas can stay cheap forever. Americans live in a fantasy world of cheap gas, cheap food, flat screen tv's and cheese from a can. Eventually they are going to have to realize that low income jobs may not be able to support automobiles and middle income jobs can't support commuting in an SUV. But no, lets just bitch about oil companies making money, because somehow, if they weren't making money, gas would be cheap again.

motivez · 05-21-2008, 05:48 PM

I think the rise in oil prices has to do more with the drop in the value of the dollar and middle eastern tensions than anything else.

So, I don't see how they're entirely wrong when they want to blame Bush for his continual fuck ups over the last 8 years that have lead to the poor economy we're in now, the stagnation of real wages, etc..

People definitely need to take responsibility for their own actions, when I was shopping for cars the primary thing I wanted was a car that would get good gas mileage.. I found a 10 year old car that's currently getting me 28 mpg in the city, that's fun to drive.. but it's definitely small.

People who have bought gas guzzlers have little room to complain about the prices they're paying, but they can certainly complain about Bush's mismanagement of economic and foreign policy that have certainly not helped matters.

thewise1 · 05-21-2008, 05:55 PM

I'm with you. It's so frustrating to me to see that.

6SpeedTA95 · 05-21-2008, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I think the rise in oil prices has to do more with the drop in the value of the dollar and middle eastern tensions than anything else.

So, I don't see how they're entirely wrong when they want to blame Bush for his continual fuck ups over the last 8 years that have lead to the poor economy we're in now, the stagnation of real wages, etc..

People definitely need to take responsibility for their own actions, when I was shopping for cars the primary thing I wanted was a car that would get good gas mileage.. I found a 10 year old car that's currently getting me 28 mpg in the city, that's fun to drive.. but it's definitely small.

People who have bought gas guzzlers have little room to complain about the prices they're paying, but they can certainly complain about Bush's mismanagement of economic and foreign policy that have certainly not helped matters.

About 40 to 50 dollars of the price of oil is due to the falling dollar you are correct. The rest is due to supply/demand dynamics rapidly changing.

seangone · 05-21-2008, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

So I just got back home from school and am pretty disgusted by my friends and family lately. We'll be driving around town and see gas at around $4, and they will say something like, damn Bush. Or, we need someone to stand up to the oil companies. So many people that I otherwise respect are either leftist idiots deadset on blaming Exxon and Bush or rightwing idiots deadset on blaming environmentalists and blah blah blah. It's not possible that we are just encountering the real price of gasoline?

People can have boats and cars and big houses in the country all they want. But, I don't understand how they think gas can stay cheap forever. Americans live in a fantasy world of cheap gas, cheap food, flat screen tv's and cheese from a can. Eventually they are going to have to realize that low income jobs may not be able to support automobiles and middle income jobs can't support commuting in an SUV. But no, lets just bitch about oil companies making money, because somehow, if they weren't making money, gas would be cheap again.

There's a lot of reasons for prices to go up and there might be less complaints if the companies were not making record profits at the time that fuel prices are hurting consumers. Just because there is a high demand does not mean it's ethical to boost prices to take advantage of such a demand. During natural disasters gas stations get in a lot of trouble if they start gouging people.

When the entire country is hurting from a reduced availability of a commodity that the economy runs on, it should not be a bonus for those who take advantage of that shortage.

Spideynw · 05-21-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by seangone

There's a lot of reasons for prices to go up and there might be less complaints if the companies were not making record profits at the time that fuel prices are hurting consumers. Just because there is a high demand does not mean it's ethical to boost prices to take advantage of such a demand. During natural disasters gas stations get in a lot of trouble if they start gouging people.

When the entire country is hurting from a reduced availability of a commodity that the economy runs on, it should not be a bonus for those who take advantage of that shortage.

Please, I would love for you to tell me, when does a business owner know they are "gouging" their customers?

6SpeedTA95 · 05-21-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by seangone

There's a lot of reasons for prices to go up and there might be less complaints if the companies were not making record profits at the time that fuel prices are hurting consumers. Just because there is a high demand does not mean it's ethical to boost prices to take advantage of such a demand. During natural disasters gas stations get in a lot of trouble if they start gouging people.

When the entire country is hurting from a reduced availability of a commodity that the economy runs on, it should not be a bonus for those who take advantage of that shortage.

Oil companies dont control the price of oil....PERIOD.

nbiggershaft · 05-22-2008, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

I think the rise in oil prices has to do more with the drop in the value of the dollar and middle eastern tensions than anything else.

So, I don't see how they're entirely wrong when they want to blame Bush for his continual fuck ups over the last 8 years that have lead to the poor economy we're in now, the stagnation of real wages, etc..

People definitely need to take responsibility for their own actions, when I was shopping for cars the primary thing I wanted was a car that would get good gas mileage.. I found a 10 year old car that's currently getting me 28 mpg in the city, that's fun to drive.. but it's definitely small.

People who have bought gas guzzlers have little room to complain about the prices they're paying, but they can certainly complain about Bush's mismanagement of economic and foreign policy that have certainly not helped matters.

Bush's fuckups have alot do to with alot of problems. But he doesn't control the value of the dollar (unless he goes on a printing spree, but that isn't the case).

nbiggershaft · 05-22-2008, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by seangone

There's a lot of reasons for prices to go up and there might be less complaints if the companies were not making record profits at the time that fuel prices are hurting consumers. Just because there is a high demand does not mean it's ethical to boost prices to take advantage of such a demand. During natural disasters gas stations get in a lot of trouble if they start gouging people.

When the entire country is hurting from a reduced availability of a commodity that the economy runs on, it should not be a bonus for those who take advantage of that shortage.

I'm not defending price gouging, there is no sudden natural disaster that has us clamoring for gas. Gas prices have been steadily increasing with warnings going back to the mid 90's.

northhunter · 05-22-2008, 08:24 AM

At least part of the reason for high gas prices is all the wonderful "made in China" items we Americans stock up on every week at our local Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target etc. Pictue a guy named Mr Yang living in China working at the Whatzit plant. In the past ten years sales especially to America have increased 500% or more. He's making enough now to actually buy a car something his family and a couple million Chineese have never had. Now of course those cars run on gas so a big chunk of the oil pie is now diverted to China and other developing areas who didn't need that much oil before. So a big part of the high cost of oil can be laid right at the feet of Joe and Jane American shopper.

WickedLou9 · 05-22-2008, 09:12 AM

Of the two major causes of high gas prices, one is Bush's fault.
We have increasing demand from India and China and we have the falling value of the US dollar. Since the price of oil is valued in US dollars, everytime the dollar falls, oil goes up accordingly.

Bush, and Congress have jointly caused the drop in the US dollar. So instead of 130 dollars a barrel, if the US dollar had maintained it's value we would be looking at 90 dollars a barrel. Gas would probably be in the high 2 dollar range instead of 3.75.

There is nothing anyone can do about India and China becoming more prosperous. So the price of oil is going to go up no matter what we do. BUt by devaluing the dollar, we have just been rubbing salt in our own wounds.

6SpeedTA95 · 05-22-2008, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Of the two major causes of high gas prices, one is Bush's fault.
We have increasing demand from India and China and we have the falling value of the US dollar. Since the price of oil is valued in US dollars, everytime the dollar falls, oil goes up accordingly.

Bush, and Congress have jointly caused the drop in the US dollar. So instead of 130 dollars a barrel, if the US dollar had maintained it's value we would be looking at 90 dollars a barrel. Gas would probably be in the high 2 dollar range instead of 3.75.

There is nothing anyone can do about India and China becoming more prosperous. So the price of oil is going to go up no matter what we do. BUt by devaluing the dollar, we have just been rubbing salt in our own wounds.

Very true...about 40 to 50 dollars of the price of oil is due to hedging of the falling dollar. Excellent point...

Also I ran some numbers this morning, if the most efficient company in the business, exxonmobil decided to no longer make money the cost of gasoline would drop from 4 bucks a gallon to 3.35/gallon. People would still be bitching about the price because they have been since 2 bucks a gallon. If a company like ConocoPhillips decided to make NO money they could lower their price from 4 bucks a gallon to about 3.60/gallon.

Donkey® · 05-22-2008, 09:57 AM

All I want to know is if we're in the middle east with the stated purpose of protecting our interests (low oil prices and constant supply flow) and we don't accomplish those goals...how is that not Bush's fault?

WickedLou9 · 05-22-2008, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

All I want to know is if we're in the middle east with the stated purpose of protecting our interests (low oil prices and constant supply flow) and we don't accomplish those goals...how is that not Bush's fault?

The supply of crude isn't really a problem. Our refineries are already running at full capacity. If the Saudi's pump more oil it will just backlog as we would be unable to refine anymore than we already are. The problem isn't really a shortage of supply.

Donkey® · 05-22-2008, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The supply of crude isn't really a problem. Our refineries are already running at full capacity. If the Saudi's pump more oil it will just backlog as we would be unable to refine anymore than we already are. The problem isn't really a shortage of supply.

Then why on earth was Bush over there begging the Saudi's to pump more oil...then criticizing them when they offered peanuts?

6SpeedTA95 · 05-22-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The supply of crude isn't really a problem. Our refineries are already running at full capacity. If the Saudi's pump more oil it will just backlog as we would be unable to refine anymore than we already are. The problem isn't really a shortage of supply.

Actually right now we're running below capacity, demand has been dampened for gasoline which is why COP's margins are shit right now. Refinery usage has dropped 5 or 6% over the last 2 years.

Crude supply long term is a problem but you're right, short term it is not.

WickedLou9 · 05-22-2008, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Then why on earth was Bush over there begging the Saudi's to pump more oil...then criticizing them when they offered peanuts?

I think it's all about politics. They refuse to pump more oil because we can't refine anymore than we currently are and they have actually said as much. If they pump more they will end up with oil sitting around that they can't sell. It probably would drive the price down somewhat but that would hurt all of the other producers of oil. If the Saudi's pump more, who will buy that extra oil? We can't physically use any more than we already are.

WickedLou9 · 05-22-2008, 10:50 AM

It looks like I was using old numbers. We are actually at about 88% capacity right now. Still high but not maxed out.

U.S. Total Weekly Inputs, Utilization & Production

6SpeedTA95 · 05-22-2008, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

It looks like I was using old numbers. We are actually at about 88% capacity right now. Still high but not maxed out.

U.S. Total Weekly Inputs, Utilization & Production

So its down about 8% not 6%...

avsp · 05-22-2008, 11:44 AM

I think much of the possible extra Saudi/ME oil is of the more 'sour' type that requires refinaries set up specifically to deal with it IIUC

Perhaps this explains why there is increased refinery down time as they rejig themselves to cope?

IIUC all crude futures till 2016 are now more than current spot price, which is surely a sign of long-term supply worries.

The initial pont about the readjustment of living standards worldwide is, IMO, an excellent one.
The disparity in lifestyles accross the world, (& the frankly insane 'justifications' & maintainance for them), have troubled me virtually all my life

The mindless greed fostered in 'the West', largely by advertising, is not sustainable by any measure.
Attempts by others to adopt such profligate ways are perhaps the only more insane future.

Its not just oil its everything, ..., right down to water.

The 'redneck headwreck' of all this worries me greatly.