Do you affirm a belief in some sort of higher power?

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

No, they were not. The vast majority of the Founding Fathers were Christians, of various sects. Some were deists and / or unitarians.

To name a few deists: Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, John Quincy Adams, George Washington, and Ethan Allen.

Of course not all of them were deists. That would be a silly claim to make, Mr. Nitpickyman.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

To name a few deists: Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, John Quincy Adams, George Washington, and Ethan Allen.

Of course not all of them were deists. That would be a silly claim to make, Mr. Nitpickyman.

George Washington is debatable. He attended church regularly and, while never taking communion, was still an important member of his church. In some instances, he appears to be a deist, but in others he appears to be a Christian.

Madison, Jefferson, and Franklin were deists but typically held the Bible and Christianity in general in high regard (unlike modern deists). Yes, they all denounced Christian corruption, Catholicism, and man made traditions and doctrines (particularly Jefferson), but they all still held Jesus and the Bible, in general, in high regard.

John Quincy Adams is hardly a Founding Father. He had nothing to do with the Revolution nor the Constitution. But you are correct in stating that he wasn't a Christian; he was a unitarian.

I'll give you Ethan Allen. He was a Founding Father that was not a Christian, and much like Thomas Paine, was opposed to pretty much all of Christianity.


So, out of your comment about "The Founding Fathers were deists", we have one that is absolutely a deist that hates religion and Christianity, three that are regarded as deists but still favored Christianity, and one that we're not sure of.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by lew

So, out of your comment about "The Founding Fathers were deists", we have one that is absolutely a deist that hates religion and Christianity, three that are regarded as deists but still favored Christianity, and one that we're not sure of.

And that's a very small percentage of the founding fathers. It's hilarious how everyone focuses on the one that was truly deist to say that our founding fathers were deists.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And that's a very small percentage of the founding fathers. It's hilarious how everyone focuses on the one that was truly deist to say that our founding fathers were deists.

By "one" you actually mean "four" (+1 that's debatable), and that's just the ones that I listed (for the mathematically inept, I was right about all of them (6) except maybe Washington (-~0.5), and one of the guys I listed wasn't a founding father(-1), so that's ~4.5).

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

By "one" you actually mean "four" (+1 that's debatable), and that's just the ones that I listed (for the mathematically inept, I was right about all of them (6) except maybe Washington (-~0.5), and one of the guys I listed wasn't a founding father(-1), so that's ~4.5).

As he said, only one was a true deist.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

By "one" you actually mean "four" (+1 that's debatable), and that's just the ones that I listed (for the mathematically inept, I was right about all of them (6) except maybe Washington (-~0.5), and one of the guys I listed wasn't a founding father(-1), so that's ~4.5).

Wrong. Unitarianism != deism. Adams was a unitarian, not a deist.


Also, the three that were deists but favored Christianity could be argued as being unitarians and not deists.

You only named ONE 'devout' deist.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And that's a very small percentage of the founding fathers. It's hilarious how everyone focuses on the one that was truly deist to say that our founding fathers were deists.

How many other ones can you name without looking it up?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

How many other ones can you name without looking it up?

How many biochemical reactions can you name without looking it up?

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

You only named ONE 'devout' deist.

That term is about as pathetic as "devout atheism." Deism is not a religion. There is no "devout" to it.

Deists are welcome to hold Christian ideals close, and hell, they could even be Christian. But that doesn't mean that they have to believe that there is a dude up in the sky waiting to punish them for bad or reward them for good, which is precisely what Christianity emphasizes (not to mention that belief would go against deism).

The fact is, the founding fathers were deists. They didn't believe that God lived on Earth. And they didn't believe that the nonbelievers would burn in Hell. Those are two rather important beliefs for most Christians. However, I will admit that they were Christian, nonetheless ... just not the same flavor of "Christianity" that we see today; they were "Christian" in the same manner that the Gnostics were "Christian."

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

How many irrelevant red herrings can I bring up to divert attention away from my rather large misstep?

Next time don't try to downplay something when the significance of said people being of a certain background is obvious due to their importance relative to other less well known people..?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

That term is about as pathetic as "devout atheism." Deism is not a religion. There is no "devout" to it.

Deists are welcome to hold Christian ideals close, and hell, they could even be Christian. But that doesn't mean that they have to believe that there is a dude up in the sky waiting to punish them for bad or reward them for good, which is precisely what Christianity emphasizes (not to mention that belief would go against deism).

The fact is, the founding fathers were deists. They didn't believe that God lived on Earth. And they didn't believe that the nonbelievers would burn in Hell. Those are two rather important beliefs for most Christians. However, I will admit that they were Christian, nonetheless ... just not the same flavor of "Christianity" that we see today; they were "Christian" in the same manner that the Gnostics were "Christian."

That is wrong. I agree with the rest of your last paragraph, for the most part. They could be classifed under Christianity, just not orthodox Christianity. Although some of the more "deist" Founding Fathers believed in eternal punishment.

Again though, it is not a fact that "the Founding Fathers were deists." Many were "regular" Christians. Only some would fit that description you gave in your last paragraph. Most of them would more likely fit under "normal" Christianity.

[lew]

As a quick example, even Benjamin Franklin, one of the most "deist" of the Founding Fathers stated:


"...that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virture rewarded, either here or hereafter."

[lew]

And by the way, while I won't say that Franklin or Jefferson were Christians, as alot of the Religious Right say, I also won't say that "all the founding fathers were deists" like alot of the Atheist Left says. Why do they say this? Because modern deism has much in common with atheism. The atheists are just as guilty of revising history to say that all founding fathers were deists (and by extension, atheists), as the Religious Right is in saying that all are Christians.


The truth is that the majority could be classified as Christians. A minority were deists and / or unitarians. None were atheists or any other religion. A lot were Masons, which alot of Christians consider to be a cult. So, it's a little bit complicated to say with clarity just what exactly the Founding Fathers believed. I also think your previous description dumpy was a good one - a lot were Christians in the same way that Gnostics were.


The point is that these people were far from atheism. Most cherished Christianity, even the ones that weren't Christians. The main beef I have with calling all of them deists is that, in today's terminology, deism is closely related to atheism. When in that time period, it had a lot of similiarities to Christianity, while still having stark differences.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Something probably made us, but I have no idea what that something is, where it came from, what it wants, if it wants anything, or if it cares what goes on down here...and I'm pretty sure every human effort to identify that thing and what it wants thus far has been a load of horse shit, piled on humanity either by lunatics or opportunists.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

And by the way, while I won't say that Franklin or Jefferson were Christians, as alot of the Religious Right say, I also won't say that "all the founding fathers were deists" like alot of the Atheist Left says. Why do they say this? Because modern deism has much in common with atheism. The atheists are just as guilty of revising history to say that all founding fathers were deists (and by extension, atheists), as the Religious Right is in saying that all are Christians.

Easy there turbo, I didn't deny that the founding fathers were Christian. I simply said that they were deists as well. You say you don't like calling them "deists" because of how modern deism is so similar to atheism. Well, I don't particularly like calling them Christian either because, for the most part, I find modern Christianity to be an insult to humanity, and I don't think their views would align with current Christian beliefs, especially the ones held here in America. But the fact remains that they are regarded as deists, albeit Christian, and the "No true Scottsman" argument doesn't really hold up.

[Nonphixion]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

I was talking to Publius because he said, "I believe in a watchmaker god." That's a phrase attributed to deism (actually, it's "clockmaker," as "watchmaker" is attributed to the anti-evolution brigade), which basically means that "the clockmaker made the clock, wound it up, and then didn't touch it again." It's implying that God created the universe and then took off. That's exactly what deism is. Deists most certainly believe in a higher power. Their higher power just isn't around anymore. The founding fathers of America were deists.

They most certainly were not, the Founding Fathers of this country were overwhelmingly FreeMasons.

Their beliefs were Hermetic, and also deriving from some certain Kabbalistic writings. Latter day Masonic teachings are highly spiritual, I am almost sure they did not believe in a good that just "stood back and watched".

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Easy there turbo, I didn't deny that the founding fathers were Christian. I simply said that they were deists as well. You say you don't like calling them "deists" because of how modern deism is so similar to atheism. Well, I don't particularly like calling them Christian either because, for the most part, I find modern Christianity to be an insult to humanity, and I don't think their views would align with current Christian beliefs, especially the ones held here in America. But the fact remains that they are regarded as deists, albeit Christian, and the "No true Scottsman" argument doesn't really hold up.

I never said that you denied them being Christian. I said "they" when referring to the Atheist Left, not "you."

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

I never said that you denied them being Christian. I said "they" when referring to the Atheist Left, not "you."

Gotcha. I was reading into it too much. I figured you were accusing me of being part of the "atheist left" (since I'm an atheist and my social views lean to the left). My bad.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Gotcha. I was reading into it too much. I figured you were accusing me of being part of the "atheist left" (since I'm an atheist and my social views lean to the left). My bad.

Nope not at all. Besides, while I disagree completely with your religious view, I agree a lot with your political views.