I don't think we've had a thread about the polygamist ranch folks yet

[thewise1]

So today the Texas Supreme Court ruled that 440 children (I think that was all of them, right?) should be returned to their parents and that there was no evidence to support abuse.

Prior to today, they found that many of the 'underage' mothers were actually of age. They had been provided with birth certificates and such and ignored those documents - what else can the family provide, right? - and separated these children from their parents.

My opinion: The government overstepped big time on this and was just looking for a way to bother a generally peaceful people because their religion made them different from the rest of us. I also think that outlawing polygamy is stupid - if tax concerns are an issue, then limit the deduction to one of the wives of the group (or husbands, if you're into that I guess).

I'm glad to see what I perceive to be justice done.

[Phantom]

It seems to me there probably were some weddings with very young girls, but I think they cast too wide of a net in rounding up 400+ people.

Hopefully they can protect the people that need protection and leave the rest alone.

[Stylerod]

Yeah, I couldn't believe they did what they did when it happened. That is a weird sect and I'm sure they broke a lot of laws but taking away every kid from every family? That was just bullshit.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yeah, I couldn't believe they did what they did when it happened. That is a weird sect and I'm sure they broke a lot of laws but taking away every kid from every family? That was just bullshit.

How else are they supposed to sort out who belongs to who?
From what I had read at the time, people couldn't even answer simple questions about who they were related to and how.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Scrum

How else are they supposed to sort out who belongs to who?
From what I had read at the time, people couldn't even answer simple questions about who they were related to and how.

They answered, the police or authorities just didn't believe them. They even provided documentation which was later found to be accurate.

The biggest thing that I don't get - every small town has 13-16 year olds with babies. They don't take those kids away, why would they do that here?

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by Scrum

How else are they supposed to sort out who belongs to who?
From what I had read at the time, people couldn't even answer simple questions about who they were related to and how.

You sure as hell don't do it by grabbing EVERY child in a community and sorting it out later.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So today the Texas Supreme Court ruled that 440 children (I think that was all of them, right?) should be returned to their parents and that there was no evidence to support abuse.

Prior to today, they found that many of the 'underage' mothers were actually of age. They had been provided with birth certificates and such and ignored those documents - what else can the family provide, right? - and separated these children from their parents.

My opinion: The government overstepped big time on this and was just looking for a way to bother a generally peaceful people because their religion made them different from the rest of us. I also think that outlawing polygamy is stupid - if tax concerns are an issue, then limit the deduction to one of the wives of the group (or husbands, if you're into that I guess).

I'm glad to see what I perceive to be justice done.

Just to make it clear - and I know you didn't say otherwise so don't view this as an argument - the Supreme Court has not ordered CPS to return the children. The court has said that CPS abused its discretion by kidnapping (my word, not theirs) the children.

Texas CPS has responded by saying that it will comply with the court if it is ordered to return the children, which seems to imply that CPS is responding with, "Well fuck you. I don't have to return the kids until the big man says so."

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

You sure as hell don't do it by grabbing EVERY child in a community and sorting it out later.

What if you expect the entire community is complicit?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

What if you expect the entire community is complicit?

some due process maybe

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Just to make it clear - and I know you didn't say otherwise so don't view this as an argument - the Supreme Court has not ordered CPS to return the children. The court has said that CPS abused its discretion by kidnapping (my word, not theirs) the children.

Texas CPS has responded by saying that it will comply with the court if it is ordered to return the children, which seems to imply that CPS is responding with, "Well fuck you. I don't have to return the kids until the big man says so."

they are returning them on monday, IIRC

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

some due process maybe

Oh, I agree. But I mean, this wasn't a normal neighborhood where the families were living separately, etc.. they were living in a compound together if I remember right.

In that case, if you have suspicion of one person with the family structure set up the way it is.. shouldn't there be some procedural differences?

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh, I agree. But I mean, this wasn't a normal neighborhood where the families were living separately, etc.. they were living in a compound together if I remember right.

In that case, if you have suspicion of one person with the family structure set up the way it is.. shouldn't there be some procedural differences?

So because they are of a 'weird' religion, they should be treated differently?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

So because they are of a 'weird' religion, they should be treated differently?

No, because their family structure is different.

It's like a domestic dispute is treated differently by the police than a random fight in a neighborhood.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by thewise1

they are returning them on monday, IIRC

Yeah, looks like you're right. I had read in a different article that CPS was still keeping the children but said that they would comply if the court ordered them to return the children, but I just saw this article linked on CATO, which says this:

"We are disappointed, but we understand and respect the court's decision and will take immediate steps to comply," a statement from the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services read in part. It added: "We will continue to prepare for the prompt and orderly reunification of these children with their families."

[Dumpy Dooby]

Holy crap!

I just read this in that CATO article.

CPS invited some mental health workers to the various shelters to help care for the hundreds of children. The mental health workers were disturbed by what they saw of CPS’s treatment of the women and children, and their written reports corroborate the bitter complaints of the FLDS mothers. I don’t think the news media has given this aspect of the story the attention it deserves — so here are some excerpts from the various reports that have been made public:

• “Women were constantly lied to about where their children [were] and when they could see their lawyers and about when they would be reunited with their children.”
• “Constant reminders that the adult women were only guests and that they were not in charge of the children and what CPS did to them. [The children] belonged to CPS now and they could talk, interrogate, separate and treat them any way [CPS] wanted. This included physical exams and x-rays without [parental] supervision.”
• “I sat with Audrey while three of her children were removed for six hours of questioning.”
• “The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
• “The door to the room was almost constantly open. Even when the women closed the door to reduce noise during naptime or to dress themselves or the children, it was almost immediately opened again [by a CPS worker].”
• “The women were lied to and denied access to their attorneys.”
• “At least 5 mothers reported that at night CPS [workers] circled their beds, held flashlight in their faces & then would sit inches away from them as they tried to sleep. Mothers reported that they were scared CPS would take their children during the night.”
• “The CPS workers were openly rude to the mothers and the children, yelled at them for trying to wave to friends and family members in surrounding shelters, threatened them with arrest if they did not stop waving to others, continually reminded them that the women were guests only and could be made to leave if they did not cooperate, threatened the mothers with never seeing their children again if they did not cooperate, and ignored requests for anything.”
• “The children were amazingly clean, happy, healthy, energetic, inquisitive, well behaved, and self-confident; while the mothers were consistently calm, patient, and loving with their children.”
• “Living conditions in the coliseum were not conducive to good health for anyone, and the presence of hostile CPS workers who spied on them constantly, kept them awake at night by shining lights in their faces and talking and laughing created enormous stress for the mothers and children. None of them slept well or enough.”
• “Try to imagine all these children from age 1 to 12 years, left in that coliseum [separated from their mothers] with only CPS and [police officers] to care for them. The only others were mothers whom CPS decided were under 18 and kept in their custody along with their children. The floor was literally slick with tears in places. A baby was left in a stroller without food and water for 24 hours and ended up in the hospital. A 4 year old boy was so terrified that he snuck away and hid and was only found after the coliseum had been emptied the next day.”
• “I witnessed a young mother named Rosinith be required by CPS to board the bus back to the ranch, though her young child was in the hospital with 104 degree fever and even though the child’s physician had personally requested the mother’s presence at the hospital. This event haunts me still, and I cannot imagine such a heartless act.”
• “By the second day, I was ready to run in front of the CNN cameras to shout that there was a travesty happening inside those walls…. Of course I was cautioned not to interfere in a ‘crime scene investigation.’”
• “I have always been proud to be an American and a Texan but this incident is not what America or Texas stands for and something must be done to undo the horrible injustice that has been done.”

CPS denies the allegations of mistreatment. But the excerpts above are eyewitness reports from objective/disinterested social workers that CPS invited into the shelters.

[thewise1]

So the conditions of this release of children back to the parents:

The parents are not being allowed to leave Texas without court permission.
The parents must participate in parenting classes.
They were also ordered not to interfere with any child abuse investigation and to allow the children to undergo psychiatric or medical exams if required.

[Dumpy Dooby]

We'll give you back your children as long as you make them "normal."

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by motivez

No, because their family structure is different.

It's like a domestic dispute is treated differently by the police than a random fight in a neighborhood.

Still, each case should have been investigated on a case by case basis. Being a underage mother isn't reason enough to take your child away in and of itself.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Kytro

Still, each case should have been investigated on a case by case basis. Being a underage mother isn't reason enough to take your child away in and of itself.

It's a very unique legal situation that has some interesting ethical questions to be answered.. I'm a proponent of consenting adults being able to form whatever family unit they want, whatever their sexual orientation or desired family structure

I think that with a polygamist family structure though, you can't really treat it like a normal neighborhood with a bunch of separate, unrelated families all living in close proximity.

Lets say the police get a report of a child A (who belongs to Mother A and Father A) being molested. They remove the child, but lets say they have Sister A living with them, along with her child, child B.

Should there be anything done to protect child B if there's been allegations of abuse (but no legal court verdict, etc, against either Mother A or Father A)? Or should they leave child B in the home even though the allegations have entirely revolved around child A?