Defining Capitalism and Socialism

[David Blomstrom]

Semantics and propaganda often make it hard to discuss politics. For example, the term "liberal" means different things to liberals and conservatives. The meaning also varies between countries.

One of the most misunderstood political terms is socialism. We're all at least vaguely familiar with the standard dictionary definition - basically an economic system controlled by the government. In a socialist society, people work for the state, which sets prices, wages, etc.

But socialism has also come to imply social justice. In the U.S., many of the benefits workers enjoy are legacies of the socialist movement of the late 19th-early 20th century, even if the U.S. is officially a capitalistic country. Socialism enjoyed a bit of a renaissance during the turbulent 1960's.

Today, a so called "pink tide" is sweeping Latin America, and social justice is a major theme. Of course, the most famous Latin socialist countries are Cuba and Venezuela. Cuba is socialist in the strict sense of the term, but Venezuela might be described as a country with a mixed economy.

Socialism can also imply accountability. Ironically, this definition is perhaps best promoted by right-wingers.

For example, if I suggest that Bill Gates should be held accountable for his crimes, conservatives might all me a "dirty socialist." If I demand that a person who assaults me be thrown in jail, does that make me a socialist, too?

Obviously, the focus is on the rich and powerful. Free market capitalists believe in a two class system, where corporate executives be allowed to play by their own rules - or no rules at all.

Which brings us to socialism's rival, capitalism. Like socialism, most of us know what it is. But there are different types, or flavors, of capitalism.

How many people understand neoliberalism, or "free market capitalism"? As I understand it, free market capitalism essentially describes a capitalistic system unrestrained by rules and regulations. Fans claim capitalism functions best without interference, while critics point out that corruption is rampant without government regulation and oversight.

I think the terms neoliberalism can be roughly synonymous with globalization, though the latter can have other meanings as well. Despite its name, neoliberalism is most closely associated with conservatives. To Latin Americans, it means exploitation. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his allies complian bitterly about neoliberalism and are actively fighting it.

Another term that appears to be growing in popularity is mixed economy. Many people see good in both capitalism and socialism, so why not embrace both? Free market capitalists sometimes argue that capiitalism can't be combined with socialism. If you modify or restrict it, then it's no longer capitalism.

OK, then what do you call it? The best term I'm aware of is MIXED ECONOMY, which I further characterize as capitalism with a conscience. In other words, you start out with a capitalistic system, then apply some checks and balances, like regulation and nationalizing key industries.

* * * * *

In summary, one can't have an honest debate about capitalism or socialism unless all the participants are on the same page regarding definitions. So how do YOU define socialism, capitalism and the various shades of each? What do terms like neoliberalism, globalization, democratic socialism and mixed economy mean to you?

[kinggovernor]

Socialism = Inefficient allocation of resources because of the top down decisions that are made.

Capitalism is not without restricts, for instance property rights is inherent part of capitalism it cannot exist without them.

[kombayn]

Socialism = SUCKS!

[David Blomstrom]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

Socialism = Inefficient allocation of resources because of the top down decisions that are made.

Capitalism is not without restricts, for instance property rights is inherent part of capitalism it cannot exist without them.

Yes, as in expanding eminent domain rights so corporations have more power to steal other people's property. I could also tell you stories about the Seattle School District taking people's property, then turning around and selling it at a profit.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by David Blomstrom

Yes, as in expanding eminent domain rights so corporations have more power to steal other people's property. I could also tell you stories about the Seattle School District taking people's property, then turning around and selling it at a profit.

I am against eminent domain in 90% of cases but in socialism the government would seize much more property.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by David Blomstrom

Yes, as in expanding eminent domain rights so corporations have more power to steal other people's property. I could also tell you stories about the Seattle School District taking people's property, then turning around and selling it at a profit.

The concept of eminent domain is the exact opposite of recognizing property rights, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism. Eminent domain is inherently socialistic.

[lew]

Socialism = collectivism, that is the theory that the needs of the group > the needs of the individual.


Free market capitalism = libertarianism / anarchism, that is the theory that the needs of the individual > the needs of the group.


It all really depends on who you think is of more importance. The individual or the group?


Ultimately, we all recognize that in all historical examples, socialism has led to despotism and statism, but at its core, it all has to do with if you think the society is greater than the individual or vice versa.

[lew]

Originally Posted by David Blomstrom

Semantics and propaganda often make it hard to discuss politics. For example, the term "liberal" means different things to liberals and conservatives. The meaning also varies between countries.

One of the most misunderstood political terms is socialism. We're all at least vaguely familiar with the standard dictionary definition - basically an economic system controlled by the government. In a socialist society, people work for the state, which sets prices, wages, etc.

But socialism has also come to imply social justice. In the U.S., many of the benefits workers enjoy are legacies of the socialist movement of the late 19th-early 20th century, even if the U.S. is officially a capitalistic country. Socialism enjoyed a bit of a renaissance during the turbulent 1960's.

Today, a so called "pink tide" is sweeping Latin America, and social justice is a major theme. Of course, the most famous Latin socialist countries are Cuba and Venezuela. Cuba is socialist in the strict sense of the term, but Venezuela might be described as a country with a mixed economy.

Socialism can also imply accountability. Ironically, this definition is perhaps best promoted by right-wingers.

For example, if I suggest that Bill Gates should be held accountable for his crimes, conservatives might all me a "dirty socialist." If I demand that a person who assaults me be thrown in jail, does that make me a socialist, too?

Obviously, the focus is on the rich and powerful. Free market capitalists believe in a two class system, where corporate executives be allowed to play by their own rules - or no rules at all.

Which brings us to socialism's rival, capitalism. Like socialism, most of us know what it is. But there are different types, or flavors, of capitalism.

How many people understand neoliberalism, or "free market capitalism"? As I understand it, free market capitalism essentially describes a capitalistic system unrestrained by rules and regulations. Fans claim capitalism functions best without interference, while critics point out that corruption is rampant without government regulation and oversight.

I think the terms neoliberalism can be roughly synonymous with globalization, though the latter can have other meanings as well. Despite its name, neoliberalism is most closely associated with conservatives. To Latin Americans, it means exploitation. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his allies complian bitterly about neoliberalism and are actively fighting it.

Another term that appears to be growing in popularity is mixed economy. Many people see good in both capitalism and socialism, so why not embrace both? Free market capitalists sometimes argue that capiitalism can't be combined with socialism. If you modify or restrict it, then it's no longer capitalism.

OK, then what do you call it? The best term I'm aware of is MIXED ECONOMY, which I further characterize as capitalism with a conscience. In other words, you start out with a capitalistic system, then apply some checks and balances, like regulation and nationalizing key industries.

* * * * *

In summary, one can't have an honest debate about capitalism or socialism unless all the participants are on the same page regarding definitions. So how do YOU define socialism, capitalism and the various shades of each? What do terms like neoliberalism, globalization, democratic socialism and mixed economy mean to you?

What crimes has Bill Gates done?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by lew

What crimes has Bill Gates done?

I think we can agree that Windows ME was criminal. What a piece of shit.

And don't even get me started on Vista!

[lew]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think we can agree that Windows ME was criminal. What a piece of shit.

And don't even get me started on Vista!

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think we can agree that Windows ME was criminal. What a piece of shit.

And don't even get me started on Vista!

lol

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by motivez

I think we can agree that Windows ME was criminal. What a piece of shit.

And don't even get me started on Vista!

ME was murder to the computing world, vista is merely grand theft...ME was 11ty billion times worse than Vista has/will or ever will be.

Lock up gates!

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by lew

What crimes has Bill Gates done?

Philanthropy. Altruism is a crime against humanity; it is the concept behind which the collectivist doctrine cowers.

[Smull]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Philanthropy. Altruism is a crime against humanity; it is the concept behind which the collectivist doctrine cowers.

I don't know about all that man, philanthropy helps a lot of people, and I just don't see any problem with that. Its his money, he already bought everything he could ever want, why shouldn't he be able to buy a shitload of malaria vaccines with it and just give them to people with malaria if thats what he wants to do? I never understood the Randian concept of giving and altruism being bad. I agree that most anything is better if one achieves it themselves,
but i just don't see how altruism is wrong.

Back to the main point...

Capitalism = Free or very limited control of markets by a government
Socialism = Markets are entirely or mostly controlled by a government
Mixed Economy = Government controls some of the market (really this is what every system is)
Globalization = The end of isolationism, the intermingling off all the worlds economies and the emergence of a true global economy

[David Blomstrom]

Originally Posted by lew

What crimes has Bill Gates done?

Billysoft Crimes

[David Blomstrom]

Originally Posted by Smull

I don't know about all that man, philanthropy helps a lot of people, and I just don't see any problem with that.

I have no problem with philanthropy. The problem is Bill Gates is no philanthropist. That jackass couldn't even pay fair share for the Gates Foundation's new headquarters! That's right, he bilked the taxpayers out of $10 million, or something like that, on that deal.

And don't even get me started on all the wonderful things Bill Gates did my school district (Seattle) - NOT.

Bill Gates' "philanthropy" is nothing more than a public relations stunt and corporate racket.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Smull

I don't know about all that man, philanthropy helps a lot of people, and I just don't see any problem with that. Its his money, he already bought everything he could ever want, why shouldn't he be able to buy a shitload of malaria vaccines with it and just give them to people with malaria if thats what he wants to do? I never understood the Randian concept of giving and altruism being bad. I agree that most anything is better if one achieves it themselves,
but i just don't see how altruism is wrong.

I was being sarcastic. I do think altruism is a disgusting concept, but there is nothing wrong with philanthropy within a Capitalist politico-economic system. I was conflating the two for the purpose of giving Simius a sarcastic answer.

Back to the main point...

Capitalism = Free or very limited control of markets by a government
Socialism = Markets are entirely or mostly controlled by a government
Mixed Economy = Government controls some of the market (really this is what every system is)
Globalization = The end of isolationism, the intermingling off all the worlds economies and the emergence of a true global economy

I would go with the following:

Capitalism - the abrogation of government involvement within a politico-economic system. There is a Wall of Separation between the government and the economy, just like and for the same reason that there is one between government and religion.

Socialism - market is entirely controlled by the collective with no recognition of property rights. This does not require a government (but may include one, as in the case of Communism). The economic system of the American Indians was socialistic at its core.

Mixed Economy - A reduced degree to which the socialist takes from the Capitalist his rights and property under the pretense of "compromise," as if there is any compromise involved when a bruised and battered victim opts to retain what little he has left of his rights and property.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Philanthropy. Altruism is a crime against humanity; it is the concept behind which the collectivist doctrine cowers.

Let me guess: The money he publicly donates he does for publicity, and the money he donates anonymously he only does because it makes him feel better about himself.



The only reason you find altruism disgusting is because it pokes holes in your Ayn Rand-infused political worldview.

[A_C_E]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Mixed Economy - A reduced degree to which the socialist takes from the Capitalist his rights and property under the pretense of "compromise," as if there is any compromise involved when a bruised and battered victim opts to retain what little he has left of his rights and property.

Such irony coming from the man with damnsocialist.jpg as his avatar