Islam should be criticized

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by lew

1. It was a hoax
2. It was ONE Christian - it wasn't a multitude of Christians, like what happens when Muslims become outraged
3. It didn't stop or silence anything, Madonna continued the tour

Oh, please...hoax or not, it was a bomb threat, i.e., a threat to mass murder people, and once again you're defending intimidating people into silence because Xians don't usually follow through. And what do you mean "one" Christian? Yes, it was one Christian in this instance, but as I've shown through many examples, in the aggregate there are shitloads of Xians who consistently try to silence critics through threats of violence. I don't see you defending Theodore Van Gough's murderer because he was but "one" muslim. And the fact that Madonna's tour went on is irrelevant. The Mohammed cartoon is still around as well.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

because Xians don't usually follow through.

The reality is, they do a lot less than muslims. You can't deny that.

in the aggregate there are shitloads of Xians who consistently try to silence critics through threats of violence.

The term 'shitloads' is very much an exaggeration. In the aggregate, there are considerably fewer when considering percentages.

I don't see you defending Theodore Van Gough's murderer because he was but "one" muslim.

Because he actually went through with it.

And the fact that Madonna's tour went on is irrelevant. The Mohammed cartoon is still around as well.

Do you forget the response to the cartoons? Countries around the world banned it from being printed in their papers, out of fear of retribution from the muslim communities. Colleges and universities here in the US fired their student editors over publishing the cartoons...the few that dared. You will NEVER see that kind of response to Madonna and her concert.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The reality is, they do a lot less than muslims. You can't deny that.

I don't deny that. Muslims actually do murder people more. But what's absurd is to deny that death threats and bomb threats are just as effective as murder at silencing people. So if the subject is silencing criticism, which it is here, the distinction of who actually murders more is immaterial. Both tactics shut people up.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The term 'shitloads' is very much an exaggeration. In the aggregate, there are considerably fewer when considering percentages.

The raw number (or %) is irrelevant for the purposes of discussing intimidation. It doesn't take a mob on the street to intimidate people into silence. All it takes is one death threat.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Because he actually went through with it.

Right, but there's a double standard. If you were to compile every instance a christian has killed someone for religious reasons, all over the world, even in the past 50 years, that'd be a very long list. Yet if I point one of those instances out, you'll say, "but that's just ONE guy." Whereas if I point out just one muslim who killed someone, like the guy who killed Van Gough, you'll say it's indicative of a systemic problem with muslims.

At any rate, this is really a red herring, because I never maintained xians kill just as much as muslims. From the very beginning, my point is that christians intimidate people into silence just as much as muslims, whether they do it through actual murder or just death threats.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Do you forget the response to the cartoons? Countries around the world banned it from being printed in their papers, out of fear of retribution from the muslim communities. Colleges and universities here in the US fired their student editors over publishing the cartoons...the few that dared. You will NEVER see that kind of response to Madonna and her concert.

You're comparing apples to oranges. To a muslim, printing the mocking Mohammed cartoon is the height of offensive. If you want to compare the xian reaction, then you'd have to have papers print Jesus being pissed on or something...something equally as offensive to Xians, and then guage their reaction. You'll never see that in major papers in America because the newspapers are too intimidated to do so.

So you complain that muslims intimidated US/Euro papers from showing the cartoon, but xian intimidation prevents the same papers from offending xians in the first place.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I don't deny that. Muslims actually do murder people more. But what's absurd is to deny that death threats and bomb threats are just as effective as murder at silencing people. So if the subject is silencing criticism, which it is here, the distinction of who actually murders more is immaterial. Both tactics shut people up.

I disagree. I think the reason muslims are more effective at silencing people by a simple threat is because the risk of them actually going through with it is far greater than a Christian actually going through with their threat. Certainly, people take all bomb threats seriously, but if a Christian threatened death for something I did, I'd be a lot more likely to shrug it off than if a muslim threatened death, mainly because I would seriously doubt the Christian would actually go through with it. Threats are only effective if the possibility of its culmination is really there.

Right, but there's a double standard. If you were to compile every instance a christian has killed someone for religious reasons, all over the world, even in the past 50 years, that'd be a very long list. Yet if I point one of those instances out, you'll say, "but that's just ONE guy." Whereas if I point out just one muslim who killed someone, like the guy who killed Van Gough, you'll say it's indicative of a systemic problem with muslims.

I'd love to see a comparison of the two, but somehow I bet that muslims killings or follow-throughs of threats would far exceed the number of Christians actually following through.

You're comparing apples to oranges. To a muslim, printing the mocking Mohammed cartoon is the height of offensive. If you want to compare the xian reaction, then you'd have to have papers print Jesus being pissed on or something...something equally as offensive to Xians, and then guage their reaction. You'll never see that in major papers in America because the newspapers are too intimidated to do so.

So you complain that muslims intimidated US/Euro papers from showing the cartoon, but xian intimidation prevents the same papers from offending xians in the first place.

Ok, so let's take something less offensive, like the Pope repeating that quote from centuries ago about Islam. Their reaction was unbelievable, far exceeding the reaction to the quote of their leader about 'wiping Israel off the map'. The Pope has been reduced to numerous apologies, world-wide criticism, front-page news, and even having to meet with muslim envoys to 'defuse the anger'. Is that more comparable to what Madonna is doing on a regular basis, with hardly the same attention?

[ballz2wallz]

Here's a recent example:

FT.com / World / Europe - Opera withdrawn over Islamist threat

Politicians slam Berlin opera for canceling Idomeneo - Yahoo! News

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I disagree. I think the reason muslims are more effective at silencing people by a simple threat is because the risk of them actually going through with it is far greater than a Christian actually going through with their threat. Certainly, people take all bomb threats seriously, but if a Christian threatened death for something I did, I'd be a lot more likely to shrug it off than if a muslim threatened death, mainly because I would seriously doubt the Christian would actually go through with it. Threats are only effective if the possibility of its culmination is really there.

I think the threats from Xians and Muslims are equal as far as their level of intimidation. Although Muslims are more likely to follow through, the truely crazy ones are mostly on the other side of the world, which mitigates their danger to Americans and, to a lesser extent, Europeans.

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Ok, so let's take something less offensive, like the Pope repeating that quote from centuries ago about Islam. Their reaction was unbelievable, far exceeding the reaction to the quote of their leader about 'wiping Israel off the map'. The Pope has been reduced to numerous apologies, world-wide criticism, front-page news, and even having to meet with muslim envoys to 'defuse the anger'. Is that more comparable to what Madonna is doing on a regular basis, with hardly the same attention?

The Pope's comment was not less offensive than the cartoon. He debased the entire muslim religion by saying it's brought humanity nothing but violence. That's right up there with the cartoon, if not more offensive.

Wipe Israel off the map? Why are you even bringing that up? It has nothing to do with religion. That was a political statement about the state of Israel. Israel does not equal Judaism.

And the Pope's reaction to Muslim anger is not anywhere near what Madonna is doing, but then again, there's no reason for it to be-- Madonna is not the highest figure in the Catholic Church, and she didn't debase the entire Christian religion with her blasphemous art or whatever. How can you even equate the Pope to Madonna? They'll never garner the same response for the same action, nor should they, nor will they ever do the same things.

[ballz2wallz]

If you watched O'Reilly tonight, he had Bill Maher, probably one of your favorites, an avid critic of religion, and probably well-versed in his arguments against any organized religion. Even he admitted that Islam was far more dangerous than Christianity; his example was that we in the US have people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, but when they speak out against someone or something nobody pays attention. When someone in Saudi Arabia or another country speaks out against gays, they cut their heads off. I'll post the video when/if it comes out.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Even he admitted that Islam was far more dangerous than Christianity

That's fine, because I never claimed it wasn't. I just said they both do a rougly equal job of intimidating critics into silence, regardless of their tactics or who is actually more dangerous. You don't have to cut people's head off or have a million man riot to shut people up.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

That's fine, because I never claimed it wasn't. I just said they both do a rougly equal job of intimidating critics into silence, regardless of their tactics or who is actually more dangerous. You don't have to cut people's head off or have a million man riot to shut people up.

And I disagree with that. Fear is how you silence people. People don't fear Christianity like they do Islam.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And I disagree with that. Fear is how you silence people. People don't fear Christianity like they do Islam.

I wonder how much of the fear is because of Marketing and Media portrayl.

No one was scared of Muslims before 9/11.

Is 9/11 really a reason to fear a whole religion? Because of 20 people?

I think that Muslims are the new Communists.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I think that Muslims are the new Communists.

How dare you make such a comparison! The WWII vets should be angered by your comparison; that same comparison that Bush and co. have been making the past month!!!!!!!

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And I disagree with that. Fear is how you silence people. People don't fear Christianity like they do Islam.

How can you say that? What would you fear more? Death threats coming from people who live within driving distance of you? Or threats from a murderer over in Crapzakistan with a tent and a goat? I don't fear Muslims at all. Why? Because I'm in Texas where there are no Muslims! And the few that are here are so marginalized they're negligible. But redneck crazy Christians? Yep, they're everywhere...now you tell me which group I should be fearful of.

You've claimed that death threats from christians aren't bad because they don't have a history of following through, but etiher you're full of shit or have balls of steel. Most people would shut up if they started getting death threats, regardless of whom they come from.

There are certain rare people in the public eye who either do have balls of steal or are so rich and insulated, they don't care about the death threats, e.g., people like Madonna, Maher, entertainment industry folks, etc. But your average joe is effectively silenced by death threats, period.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

How can you say that? What would you fear more? Death threats coming from people who live within driving distance of you? Or threats from a murderer over in Crapzakistan with a tent and a goat?

What I fear most is death threats from people I have no doubt are willing to go through with them. These days, that seems to be muslims more than anyone else.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

How dare you make such a comparison! The WWII vets should be angered by your comparison; that same comparison that Bush and co. have been making the past month!!!!!!!

I say that not in the sense of the actual threat.

I say that in the sense that they are being marketed to the American public as this force that is out to destroy us and the ultimate evil. When in reality, it's a small number of them, and the small number are being inflamed because of political actions.

WWII Vets weren't fighting communists. I don't get that part of your post.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Christians might start burning madonna figures and calling for her assassination.

Hell I might join them and Im not even a christian.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Angry Christians force Slayer album out of India - Yahoo! News

More evidence for those who have a hard time seeing reality.

[lew]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Angry Christians force Slayer album out of India - Yahoo! News

More evidence for those who have a hard time seeing reality.

but some of the songs such as "Skeleton Christ" and "Jihad" hurt the sensibilities of Christians and Muslims alike.



I'm sure it had much more to do with the Muslims.

[R-Type]

I laugh at the rationale of christians who point to islam as a means to justify their views/practices as being 'tolerant.' It's like saying, while being sentenced to capital punishment for multiple homicide, "but your honor, I didn't use hollowpoint ammo!"

Originally Posted by lew

but some of the songs such as "Skeleton Christ" and "Jihad" hurt the sensibilities of Christians and Muslims alike.

then those sensitive types, muslim or christian, could simply opt not to buy the album, but that's not enough for them to revel in their choice. They have to revel in forcing others' choices as well.. Typical fare for rabid followers of abrahamic religions.. I'm glad mass bannings don't happen very often here in the states.. though I'll bet there's censorship that happens behind the scenes when enough money changes hands..