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Old 06-12-2008, 10:31 AM   #1
Perpetual Noob

Independent
Phantom is a jewel in the rough

Baghdad on the Potomac

For you civil libertarians, here's an interesting article about "creative policing" in a DC neighborhood.

There have been 22 murders in the neighborhood since the beginning of the year, so the police have started a program where they control entry/exit from the neighborhood at checkpoints during certain times of the day.

One article here: washingtonpost.com

Another article here:
washingtonpost.com

I think this is generally a bad idea, but I'm not sure what else to suggest.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:23 AM   #2
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Ohh, I know what to suggest!

Don't disarm the victims like DC has since 1975!
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:25 AM   #3
Perpetual Noob

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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
Ohh, I know what to suggest!

Don't disarm the victims like DC has since 1975!
I don't think that's the problem. Last night eight people were shot inside the city or just outside its borders. These include a 12 year old boy hit in a drive by shooting and a guy shot by a cop after some sort of confrontation.

washingtonpost.com
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:27 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
I don't think that's the problem. Last night eight people were shot inside the city or just outside its borders. These include a 12 year old boy hit in a drive by shooting and a guy shot by a cop after some sort of confrontation.

washingtonpost.com
I think what you just shared points out that it IS the problem. Firearms are used constantly to prevent crimes (I'd be glad to link you some recent examples from around here if you'd like) but when you disarm all the law abiding citizens, you just created a disarmed victim zone, not a gun free zone.

It's clear that the law didn't slow down those perpetrators in the slightest. They are running free so much that now we have to have cops block neighborhoods off to prevent their travel... Well how about we just let citizens defend themselves?
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
I think what you just shared points out that it IS the problem. Firearms are used constantly to prevent crimes (I'd be glad to link you some recent examples from around here if you'd like) but when you disarm all the law abiding citizens, you just created a disarmed victim zone, not a gun free zone.

It's clear that the law didn't slow down those perpetrators in the slightest. They are running free so much that now we have to have cops block neighborhoods off to prevent their travel... Well how about we just let citizens defend themselves?
I think you would have to live around the city to better understand the situation. These aren't simple robberies that an alert citizen could prevent by brandishing or even using a firearm.

These are arguments that get out of control, drive-by shootings, people attacking cops etc. No number of well-meaning citizens carrying guns is going to prevent these things.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:37 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
I think you would have to live around the city to better understand the situation. These aren't simple robberies that an alert citizen could prevent by brandishing or even using a firearm.

These are arguments that get out of control, drive-by shootings, people attacking cops etc. No number of well-meaning citizens carrying guns is going to prevent these things.
Sure it will. They probably can't directly prevent drivebys, but people who engage in drivebys are also engaging in other crimes where they DO put themselves at risk of a citizen intervening.

Yakima Herold-Republic, Yakima, WA, 11/21/07
State: WA

Jason Moore returned home to find a strange car outside. A concealed-carry license holder, he grabbed a .45-caliber handgun from his truck and inspected the home, finding the back door kicked in. Once inside, he spied a man in the bedrodm. He approached cautiously and spotted another suspect. The second man was holding Moore's own shotgun. "I fired one round and he went down," Moore said. "I Immediately dialed 9-1-1 and told them not to move ... I told them that a lot." The injured suspect complied, but the other claimed to be a gang member who would have Moore killed. When police arrived, they informed Moore that the injured suspect was wanted by U.S. Marshals on drug charges and his accomplice was a suspect in a homicide. "It's just scary to know that there were two people that bad in my house and in my bedroom," said Moore.

Lynden Tribune, Lynden, Wash., 4/4/07
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2007
A WOMAN WAS waiting for a bus when three large dogs approached and began lunging at her aggressively. She swung her backpack at them, but they continued their onslaught That's when Patrick Jones saw what was occurring and stopped his truck. He yelled at the dogs and positioned himself in front of the victim. The woman said the dogs "just wouldn't give up. They kept coming at us ..." Jones, a concealed-carry permit holder, pushed the woman behind him and drew his pistol. When the most aggressive dog lunged up at him, he shot and killed it. "He's a life saver," the woman said of Jones. Lynden Police Chief Jack Foster agreed, saying, "I think he did the lady a big favor to stop and help."

The Seattle Times, Seattle, WA, 10/08/06
State: wa

A man was exhibiting strange behavior, hurling insults and threats randomly at passersby. Police say he then began focusing on a single pedestrian. He threatened the man's life, then pummeled him with a volley of punches and kicks until the man fell injured to the ground. The assault victim, a concealed-carry permit holder, retrieved his handgun and fired once at his assailant, who died at the hospital. "He was down there, minding his own business. There is nothing to think he was anything but a random target," said Seattle police spokeswoman Deb Brown.

The News Tribune, Tacoma WA, 09/30/05
State: wa

Joe Phillips just wanted to help a friend fix her car, but police say that when he entered an auto parts store, an armed robber forced him to change his plans. According to a police report, a 21-year-old man brought a gas can into the store and began to fuel a small motorcycle that was on display. When a clerk told him to stop, the suspect pulled a gun, pointed it at the worker and announced he was robbing the place. It was then that Phillips drew his own gun and told the young man to drop his firearm. The two exchanged gunfire and the would-be robber was shot. He was recovering at a hospital and was expected to be arrested after his release. "That's exactly like Joe," said Karl Phillips, Joes brother. "Joe's a good Samaritan, always has been. Joe wouldn't have gotten involved if he didn't think it was a matter of life and death." A clerk was also injured, but is expected to recover.

The Columbian, Vancouver, WA, 09/07/05
State: wa

Ice-cream vendor Christopher Sanders, who has a concealed carry permit, told police he was selling in his usual territory when a man flagged him down and asked for a ride. When Sanders told him "no," the man allegedly tried to open the vans sliding door, which was locked, and then tried to reach in an open window on the passenger side. Sanders grabbed a handgun from behind a seat, pointed it at the alleged perpetrator and told him to get his hands out of the vehicle. The man uttered an expletive and left while Sanders phoned police. As Sanders waited for an officer to arrive, the man returned and walked toward him with his hands in his pockets. Police say Sanders yelled at the man to show his hands, and two witnesses saw the suspect throw a knife on the ground. The alleged criminal was found by police, arrested on suspicion of robbery and booked for a previously issued misdemeanor warrant.

The Olympian, Olympia, WA, 08/10/05
State: wa

It was about 4 a.m., and Chuck Estes was on his way to work when he noticed that someone had stolen his wife's car stereo and speakers. As he headed down the street, he saw two suspicious males climbing into a car loaded with electronics. While he investigated, one suspect bolted from the scene. Estes pointed a flashlight and a .44 Magnum handgun at the second suspect, who was seated in the front passenger seat, and ordered him to put his hands on the dashboard. "I made it very clear [to him] to stay in the car," said Estes, who has a concealed-carry permit. He called 9-1-1 and bolstered his firearm after determining that the suspect didn't pose a threat. "Hopefully that's the last time I'll have to pull [my gun] out of the holster," Estes said. "I want to be very clear that I choose to carry a pistol for personal protection and not to go out and stop thugs and not to be a vigilante." Authorities tracked a driver's license found on the scene to the suspect who fled, and both alleged thieves have been arrested. "In all honesty, if [Estes] hadn't taken some action, we'd probably be sitting here today with several thousands of dollars in stolen property," Chief Criminal Deputy Dan Kimball said.

The Seattle Times, Seattle, WA, 06/19/05
State: WA

When his wife woke him to report that their two dogs were barking at something on a hill near their ranch outside Loomis, Wash., Lamoyne Wahl grabbed his rifle and went to investigate. He found the dogs fighting with a bear. "So I shot the bear once, and he turned around and charged me," said Wahl. "Then I shot him again. I knew I wasn't going to get a third shot off, so I turned and ran." Wahl took about 10 steps and the bear bit him in the calf. He put the barrel to the bear's neck and pulled the trigger, dropping the animal in its tracks. Wahl was treated at North Valley Hospital in Tonasset and released.

Vancouver Columbian, Vancouver, WA, 01/05/05
State: WA

His dog’s barking and jumping around told Leon Dalsing that something was wrong in the back yard of his parents' Kalama, Wash., home. He went outside, saw someone, then went back inside to retrieve a .30-'06 rifle. He then confronted the intruder, who surrendered. Police arrived and identified the intruder as the suspect in a bank robbery.

The Columbian, Vancouver, Wash., 11/20/04
State: WA

Hearing a motorcycle engine start in the garage of his Fisher's Landing, Wash., home at 1:49 a.m., Shawn McAndrews investigated. He found three intruders, one of whom pointed a pistol at him. McAndrews retrieved a rifle, and, when the gunman failed to drop his weapon, fired, killing him. The two accomplices fled the scene.

The Spokesman-Review, Spokane, WA, 07/09/04
State: WA

Lisa Hansen awoke one morning to the sounds of someone moving around inside her house. Then someone ran up her stairs and attempted to open her bedroom door. "I waited to listen to see how many footsteps I heard," Hansen said. Deciding there was only one intruder, Hansen grabbed her cell phone and reached for a gun she keeps under her bed. She ran out of the room, confronted the burglar and held him at gunpoint until police arrived. The would-be burglar turned out to be a teenager who lives in the neighborhood and had previously done some lawn work for Hansen. The teen said he had entered her home only because he saw a man in there, but Hansen did not believe the explanation. Police later discovered a checkbook belonging to Hansen's cousin in the boy's pocket.
The Olympian, Olympia, Wash., 7/3/04
State: WA

A restraining order did not stop a series of threats and vandalism directed at Rainier, Wash., resident Donald Skewis. When the subject of the restraining order appeared on Skewis’ property, armed with a baseball bat and knife, Skewis ordered him to stop. When instead the man continued advancing, Skewis fired his revolver and mortally wounded the intruder.

The Spokesman-Review, Spokane, Wash., 7/9/04
State: WA

When Lisa Hansen woke up to the sounds of strange footsteps in her Spokane Valley, Wash., home, she kept her cool. After ascertaining that there was only one intruder, she retrieved her cell phone and a gun and confronted the burglar, holding him for police with the assistance of a neighbor, who was an off-duty sheriff's deputy.

Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Seattle, WA, 02/21/04
State: WA

The only crime jewelry store owner Gilbert Dorland previously experienced in his shop was the occasional shoplifter trying to steal an antique watch. But he reacted quickly when two armed men attempted to rob his store. The men, wearing bandannas over their faces, entered Western Jewelry and Coin at 4:19 p.m. Both drew guns and called out, "Nobody move." Dorland didn't heed that warning and drew his own gun, firing at the masked bandits and injuring one. Dorland and a friend who was in the store at the time of the robbery attempt were not injured. The would-be robbers fled in a dark green Jeep Cherokee. Police said that a man suffering from a gunshot wound later pulled into a local hospital in a vehicle matching that description.

The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA

A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning, "I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed me."

The Northern Light, Blaine, WA, 04/03/03
State: WA

One Sunday evening, a Custer, Wash., resident noticed a strange vehicle parked near a storage shed on his property. Seeing that the shed had been broken into, he picked up a shotgun and went to investigate. As a man came out of the shed, the armed homeowner confronted him. The trespasser then grabbed a gun out of his own car and pointed it at the homeowner who responded by shooting the burglar. Sergeant John Barribal reported that the suspect, Matthew Brown, was treated for facial wounds and booked on suspicion of first-degree burglary and assault.

South County Journal, Kent, WA, 09/24/02
State: WA

A Kent, Wash., jewelry store owner decided he'd had enough and wasn't going to take it anymore. Chuck Hohner waited on a customer one Friday for about a half hour when the man said he'd be back on Saturday to make a purchase. When the man returned the next day, the jeweler opened the secured door to let him in. Then the man pulled a revolver and forced Hohner to the back of the store where he tied him up with plastic ties and made him lie face down on the floor. "A pretty vulnerable feeling," said Hohner. "My life was really on the line." The jeweler was able to get his hands free, but waited until the robber was occupied pulling merchandise from the showcases. Then Hohner sprang into action, jumping to his feet, grabbing a shotgun and firing at the robber. The suspect fired four shots at Hohner, but the owner wasn't injured. "I just started letting loose toward the door" as the crook made his way toward the exit, Hohner recounted. "Cock it, shoot it, take a few steps." The robber escaped, but may have been injured. Hohner said he was scared, but could not just lie there. "I come from that old school that says you take care of your family, your property, your neighbors and your country."

Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Seattle, WA, 4/26/02
State: WA

When a West Seattle, Wash., woman heard someone knocking on her door just after 6 a.m., her male roommate approached and asked who was there. Receiving no response, he refused to open the door unless the individual identified himself. Just then the intruder, armed with a gun, kicked in the door, according to police spokesman Duane Fish. As he chased the male resident through the apartment and then began beating him, the victim called out for help. That's when his roommate grabbed her handgun and fatally shot the assailant.

The Spokesman-Review, Spokane, WA, 03/05/02
State: WA

A 71-year-old woman shot and killed a man who entered her Colville, Wash., home uninvited and attacked her. Sheriff Craig Thayer said his investigation shows that Brian Swiger appeared intoxicated when he entered Bethan Scutchfield's home. Swiger allegedly hit the woman in the face, pushed her to the floor and threatened to break her neck. Scutchfield then got a handgun and, when her attacker came at her a second time, shot him. According to court records, Scutchfield's granddaughter, Jennifer, had been granted a domestic violence protection order against Swiger six months earlier.

Seattle Times, Seattle, WA, 12/29/01
State: WA

A 13-YEAR-OLD VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, BOY was severely injured by two pit bulls before a family friend ended the attack with a pistol, killing both dogs. The dogs belonged to the boy's aunt and were being kept in a kennel in the back yard. It is unclear how the dogs got loose, said Clark County Animal Control Officer Dennis Davidson. The boy was in serious condition following surgery to repair bite wounds to his neck and arm.

Des Moines News, Des Moines, WA, 6/20/01
State: WA

A Burien, Wash., man prevented two men from invading his home one Monday afternoon by firing four shots at the men who then fled the scene. When the men first knocked at his door, the homeowner looked out and, not recognizing them, got his handgun before answering the door. After speaking to the homeowner for a few moments, one man suddenly pulled out a gun and tried to force his way inside. The resident responded by firing his gun, and the two suspects ran off. One suspect was apprehended when he arrived at a local emergency room with gunshot wounds to his arm and hand. The other was not located.
Just some local stories. Yeah, they aren't taking out driveby perpetrators, but the individuals involved aren't, for the most part, going to be hurting anyone else.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:39 AM   #7
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oopsie, sorry about the double post
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:51 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
I think what you just shared points out that it IS the problem. Firearms are used constantly to prevent crimes (I'd be glad to link you some recent examples from around here if you'd like) but when you disarm all the law abiding citizens, you just created a disarmed victim zone, not a gun free zone.

It's clear that the law didn't slow down those perpetrators in the slightest. They are running free so much that now we have to have cops block neighborhoods off to prevent their travel... Well how about we just let citizens defend themselves?



Yeah, because most of the teenagers shot can legally carry a gun as it is...stupid argument as usual.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:00 PM   #9
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most of crime doesn't involve law abiding citizens, especially gun violence.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kinggovernor View Post
most of crime doesn't involve law abiding citizens, especially gun violence.
Are you suggesting that citizens don't live among these criminals and experience this crime?
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
Are you suggesting that citizens don't live among these criminals and experience this crime?
they do but not anywhere close to the level that is related to other illegal activity, mostly drugs.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kinggovernor View Post
they do but not anywhere close to the level that is related to other illegal activity, mostly drugs.
Yeah but I would be willing to bet that these are the same criminals.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:34 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
Are you suggesting that citizens don't live among these criminals and experience this crime?
Pretty much no. The crime is essentially isolated to certain neighborhoods.

The business and tourist areas of DC are different worlds compared to the neighborhoods with massive crime problems.

You can walk around the nice areas of DC with your eyes to the sky and barely and hand on your purse without worry about anything. In the bad neighborhoods you run the risk of being hit by stray bullets on your way to the convenience store.

Gun control really has nothing to do with the situation at this point.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
Pretty much no. The crime is essentially isolated to certain neighborhoods.

The business and tourist areas of DC are different worlds compared to the neighborhoods with massive crime problems.

You can walk around the nice areas of DC with your eyes to the sky and barely and hand on your purse without worry about anything. In the bad neighborhoods you run the risk of being hit by stray bullets on your way to the convenience store.

Gun control really has nothing to do with the situation at this point.
So are there no innocent people in these neighborhoods? People who hate what their neighborhoods have changed into, but can't do anything because they are disarmed and the police don't even bother responding?

I think gun control has everything to do with it. It disarmed everyone worthwhile and of course the criminal element didn't obey that law either, surprise surprise, and thus now they are the only armed element in these areas.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:43 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
So are there no innocent people in these neighborhoods? People who hate what their neighborhoods have changed into, but can't do anything because they are disarmed and the police don't even bother responding?

I think gun control has everything to do with it. It disarmed everyone worthwhile and of course the criminal element didn't obey that law either, surprise surprise, and thus now they are the only armed element in these areas.
Most of the citizens in these neighborhoods hate the situation.

It's just ridiculous to suggest that allowing everyone to have a gun would solve anything. This isn't a situation of guys wearing white hats and guys wearing black hats where a bigger group of well-armed white hats is going to clean up the hood. Things just aren't that simple.
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
Most of the citizens in these neighborhoods hate the situation.

It's just ridiculous to suggest that allowing everyone to have a gun would solve anything. This isn't a situation of guys wearing white hats and guys wearing black hats where a bigger group of well-armed white hats is going to clean up the hood. Things just aren't that simple.
I didn't suggest they are that simple. I suggested we let people defend themselves, their property, and their loved ones. I didn't suggest we turn it into the O.K. Corral where they have pistol duels
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
Pretty much no. The crime is essentially isolated to certain neighborhoods.

The business and tourist areas of DC are different worlds compared to the neighborhoods with massive crime problems.

You can walk around the nice areas of DC with your eyes to the sky and barely and hand on your purse without worry about anything. In the bad neighborhoods you run the risk of being hit by stray bullets on your way to the convenience store.

Gun control really has nothing to do with the situation at this point.
I agree. Its funny that I would walk down any street in Iraq without a second thought but I don't drive through some neighborhoods in DC
 
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by thewise1 View Post
So are there no innocent people in these neighborhoods? People who hate what their neighborhoods have changed into, but can't do anything because they are disarmed and the police don't even bother responding?

I think gun control has everything to do with it. It disarmed everyone worthwhile and of course the criminal element didn't obey that law either, surprise surprise, and thus now they are the only armed element in these areas.
I won't live in DC proper because of the insane gun laws but I don't think it would clean up much crime if people could start carrying.

There are thousands of innocent people but even if you gave them guns it wouldn't solve the crime problem, because it is largely drug related. Meaning that most shootings are drug dealers shooting other drug dealers or users.
 
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:42 PM   #19
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