Parents who believed prayer would save daughter charged with reckless homicide

[lew]

Originally Posted by motivez

Oh please, what 11 year olds are independent enough from their parents to completely reject their religious beliefs? At that age you generally believe what your parents tell you... especially about something like God.

You're making completely ridiculous assertions.. running away because you're angry isn't the same as being sick and being told by parents not to worry because God, the creator of the universe will heal you.

And, lets not forget she was in a coma and unresponsive for days before she finally stopped breathing..

Most 11 year olds aren't independent enough to reject their parents beliefs. But certainly some are.

Like I said, whether she would have if she was old enough is irrelevant. The fact is that at this time, she did not reject them. So, it was her individual right to allow her parents to dictate her medical decisions.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by lew

Most 11 year olds aren't independent enough to reject their parents beliefs. But certainly some are.

Like I said, whether she would have if she was old enough is irrelevant. The fact is that at this time, she did not reject them. So, it was her individual right to allow her parents to dictate her medical decisions.

You are assuming that at 11 years old that she has the mental maturity to make that choice.

Do you feel that we should do away with things such as a legal age of sexual consent?

Would it be alright for me to have sex with 11 year old children as long as they don't try to run away?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dylith

You are assuming that at 11 years old that she has the mental maturity to make that choice.

Do you feel that we should do away with things such as a legal age of sexual consent?

Would it be alright for me to have sex with 11 year old children as long as they don't try to run away?

No, it would not be. And it is not alright that this girl died because of her parents' beliefs. And it is not alright to do drugs. Or a million other things.


But that doesn't mean I want them illegal.


Like I stated in my first post in this thread, I'm not exactly sure how to address this situation.


However, even though the result is the same, I do see it completely different between a lazy parent that is neglectful of their child and just don't give them they medicine they need and they die; and that of this, where loving parents believed they were doing what is best for the child.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by lew

However, even though the result is the same, I do see it completely different between a lazy parent that is neglectful of their child and just don't give them they medicine they need and they die; and that of this, where loving parents believed they were doing what is best for the child.

I see this as a meaningful distinction, but wouldn't you agree that there should be some minimum standard that parents should have to meet even if their intention is good?

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by lew

No, it would not be. And it is not alright that this girl died because of her parents' beliefs. And it is not alright to do drugs. Or a million other things.


But that doesn't mean I want them illegal.


Like I stated in my first post in this thread, I'm not exactly sure how to address this situation.


However, even though the result is the same, I do see it completely different between a lazy parent that is neglectful of their child and just don't give them they medicine they need and they die; and that of this, where loving parents believed they were doing what is best for the child.

And if the loving parents believed that sacrificing their child to a diety was the best thing to do? Or to force their child to have sex for religious reasons?

I understand that this is a tough situation for you given the fact that you are a Christian yourself even if you aren't as "crazy" as these parents are, which is why I used a different example.

Do you think that it should be illegal for adults to engage in sexual acts with 11 year old girls?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dylith

And if the loving parents believed that sacrificing their child to a diety was the best thing to do? Or to force their child to have sex for religious reasons?

I understand that this is a tough situation for you given the fact that you are a Christian yourself even if you aren't as "crazy" as these parents are, which is why I used a different example.

Do you think that it should be illegal for adults to engage in sexual acts with 11 year old girls?

I wouldn't want that illegal. And being that no religion in this country practices that, I have nothing to worry about.

I would be against forcing the child to have sex with you, since I believe all force should be illegal.


I do not know if I think it should be illegal for adults to have sex with willing 11 year olds. I can see both arguments and certainly understand why most people want it illegal, and while I personally don't really care if it is illegal, if I asked myself on a truly philosophically level, I'd probably go with it being legal.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I see this as a meaningful distinction, but wouldn't you agree that there should be some minimum standard that parents should have to meet even if their intention is good?

I don't know.


I'm always wary of situations like this because I am a crazy hippie when it comes to health.


I like to consume as much organic food as I can, I don't like vaccines or antibiotics, I like raw milk, I like raw meat on occasion, I don't like fluoridated water, etc, etc.


So what happens to me if the State comes in and screams Horrors of horrors that I feed my 18 month old raw milk and abstain as much as possible from vaccines and antibiotics?

This is why these cases concern me.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by lew

I wouldn't want that illegal. And being that no religion in this country practices that, I have nothing to worry about.

Really, you don't want murder illegal?

How do you rectify this with your stance on abortion? It shouldn't be legal for a woman to control her reproductive cycle but it should be legal for her to decide to sacrifice the child after they're born (or at 11 years old in this case) to their God?

[Dumpy Dooby]

I think it's ridiculous to force the parents to seek modern medical care for their children.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

I think it's ridiculous to force the parents to seek modern medical care for their children.

Ya, those children born into families with lazy parents deserve what they get, rite?

[lew]

Originally Posted by motivez

Really, you don't want murder illegal?

How do you rectify this with your stance on abortion? It shouldn't be legal for a woman to control her reproductive cycle but it should be legal for her to decide to sacrifice the child after they're born (or at 11 years old in this case) to their God?

He didn't say force was involved.


If the parents are forcing the child's death, then that is murder.


But if the 11 year old wants to die for her god, then shouldn't that be her right?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Ya, those children born into families with lazy parents deserve what they get, rite?

It's not that they deserve what they get.


It's that, to dumpy dooby and I, the horrors that will happen in an anarcho-capitalist society still won't compare to the horrors that happen in modern statist societies.


Neither is perfect. But there will be less force, less crime, less violence in the society we advocate than in a modernized "civilized" society.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by lew

He didn't say force was involved.


If the parents are forcing the child's death, then that is murder.

So parents shouldn't force their children to brush their teeth? Eat healthy? look both ways before crossing the street? Parents shouldn't punish children?

But if the 11 year old wants to die for her god, then shouldn't that be her right?

No, because she is not old enough nor mentally mature enough to make such a choice, hence why it is also wrong to have sexual intercourse with 11 year olds.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dylith

So parents shouldn't force their children to brush their teeth? Eat healthy? look both ways before crossing the street? Parents shouldn't punish children?

Oh, they should punish children. They should force them to eat healthy, go to church, or anything else the parents want them to do.


But the child has the individualistic right to leave that setting if they choose.


They can do the same exact thing that motivez and jajae say that I should do: if you don't like it, leave.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by lew

But if the 11 year old wants to die for her god, then shouldn't that be her right?

The fuck is wrong with you?

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by lew

Oh, they should punish children. They should force them to eat healthy, go to church, or anything else the parents want them to do.

Punishment forces behavior though, and your excuse that children can leave settings is simply silly because most children don't have the ability to make decent lives for themselves on their own. Children don't put themselves into these situations willingly, they are born into them and are utterly dependant upon partents, this isn't like a worker/boss relationship.

They aren't always capable of making those choices and are easily influenced/manipulated into compliance by parental figures.

Can I get a job at a nursing home and physically abuse old people? I mean, it is ok as long as they don't run away right? Should I have the right to hurt the mentally retarded as long as they are dependant upon me? I guess parental sexual abuse should be legal then too?

[lew]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

The fuck is wrong with you?

So, people should not have the right of suicide?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Dylith

Punishment forces behavior though, and your excuse that children can leave settings is simply silly because most children don't have the ability to make decent lives for themselves on their own. Children don't put themselves into these situations willingly, they are born into them and are utterly dependant upon partents, this isn't like a worker/boss relationship.

They aren't always capable of making those choices and are easily influenced/manipulated into compliance by parental figures.

Can I get a job at a nursing home and physically abuse old people? I mean, it is ok as long as they don't run away right? Should I have the right to hurt the mentally retarded as long as they are dependant upon me? I guess parental sexual abuse should be legal then too?

If the old people enter a contractual agreement where they want to be abused, of course you can.


And I've never stated you can abuse anybody. I never said parents can abuse their children. Abuse implies force against someone's consent. So, yes, sexual abuse, rape, physical abuse, and other forms of actual abuse should be illegal.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by lew

So, people should not have the right of suicide?

Should a three year old have the right to off himself if his parents don't buy him the latest action figure?