Parents who believed prayer would save daughter charged with reckless homicide

[motivez]

We had a thread about this story (or another very similar to it) awhile back about these parents whose daughter was sick and could be cured with modern medicine, but although they were aware of the danger.. they decided not to provide that medical care

Now, they've been charged with reckless homicide:

A town of Weston couple whose 11-year-old child died after they chose to pray for her healing rather than seek medical attention will be charged Wednesday with second-degree reckless homicide, a prosecutor said today.

Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad announced at 1 p.m. at a press conference in Weston that Dale and Leilani Neumann each will be charged with second-degree reckless homicide, a charge that carries a punishment of up to 25 years in prison.

The Neumanns’ daughter, Madeline Kara Neumann, died March 23 from complications of diabetes that were treatable, according to a medical examiner. Kara, 11, had not been to a doctor since age 3, and her parents told investigators that they did not know she had diabetes, police said.

Falstad said there has been much discussion about the “religious defense.” There is a constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion and parents have leeway in how to raise a child, though neither is absolute, she said.

“In this case it was necessary to weigh freedom of religion and parenting rights against the state’s interests in protecting children,” Falstad read from a prepared statement.

“Second-degree reckless homicide has two elements. The first element is that the defendant caused the death of another. The second element is that the defendant caused the death by criminally reckless conduct.”

“In this case that (criminally reckless) conduct was the failure to seek medical intervention. The failure to seek medical intervention created an unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great bodily harm to Kara and the Neumanns were aware of that risk.”

During the last 48 hours of her life, Kara became unable to speak, eat or walk and had breathing difficulties, Falstad said. In her final hours, Kara was comatose, Falstad said.

The Neumanns, who were not represented by their attorney Gene Linehan at the press conference, will make an initial court appearance Wednesday. Falstad said she does not consider them a flight risk, so she will ask the judge for a high-dollar signature bond at Wednesday’s hearing.

Because there was a death involved, Falstad said she had to consider homicide charges rather than neglect charges.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the Neumanns used to belong to a church, but had since branched out on their own. He cast them as “isolationists.”

Milwaukee media, including the Journal Sentinel and two television stations, also were on hand for the press conference. The circumstances surrounding Kara’s death have garnered national media attention.

<b>Update: </b>DA: Parents were aware girl could die | wausaudailyherald.com | Wausau Daily Herald

What do you guys think about this?

I mean, on the one hand you have freedom of religion.. there are other religions who don't want certain medical care, ie: Jehovah's witness wont accept blood transfusions.. and I think that's generally accepted by the states that they're allowed to refuse life saving treatment on those grounds.

And of course, parents should be able to raise their children however they want, so long as there isn't abuse, neglect, etc..

But isn't this a case of neglect? I mean, I understand that people believe in their religion, and maybe believe that if they're worth saving, their God will save them.. but when it comes to a child who has no choice in the matter, shouldn't the state intervene in cases like this?

Doesn't the child's right to live outweigh the parents decision to let her die instead of providing basic medical care?

Or is this just another example of parents being allowed to make medical decisions for their child, even if those medical decisions involve not allowing medical care?

I mean, lew and a few others on the forums probably wont vaccinate their children, is that similar?

[Simius]

Freedom to religion doesn't give you the right to infringe on the rights of another person. Abuse infringes on the rights of another person. Neglect is a form of abuse.

Fuck em.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Simius

Freedom to religion doesn't give you the right to infringe on the rights of another person. Abuse infringes on the rights of another person. Neglect is a form of abuse.

Fuck em.

Werd.

[Phantom]

I don't think children should be allowed to die unnecessarily because of any choice of the parents. If the kid were 15 or 16+ and consciously made the decision for themselves, there might be some grey area, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Let the state go after them.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by motivez

We had a thread about this story (or another very similar to it) awhile back about these parents whose daughter was sick and could be cured with modern medicine, but although they were aware of the danger.. they decided not to provide that medical care

Now, they've been charged with reckless homicide:



<b>Update: </b>DA: Parents were aware girl could die | wausaudailyherald.com | Wausau Daily Herald

What do you guys think about this?

I mean, on the one hand you have freedom of religion.. there are other religions who don't want certain medical care, ie: Jehovah's witness wont accept blood transfusions.. and I think that's generally accepted by the states that they're allowed to refuse life saving treatment on those grounds.

And of course, parents should be able to raise their children however they want, so long as there isn't abuse, neglect, etc..

But isn't this a case of neglect? I mean, I understand that people believe in their religion, and maybe believe that if they're worth saving, their God will save them.. but when it comes to a child who has no choice in the matter, shouldn't the state intervene in cases like this?

Doesn't the child's right to live outweigh the parents decision to let her die instead of providing basic medical care?

Or is this just another example of parents being allowed to make medical decisions for their child, even if those medical decisions involve not allowing medical care?

I mean, lew and a few others on the forums probably wont vaccinate their children, is that similar?

I don't really think that the vaccine thing is the same. the level of risk is different, the potential benefit/cost is not the same. IN this case the child was going to die, period. The child could have been saved easily by a routine medical procedure. a shot of insulin? They chose to let thier kid die (100% chance) instead of doing the most basic of minimal medical treatment.
If it was you yourself refusing treatement for your own body, fine. You can do that. If you would rather die than take medical treatement that is up to each and every individual to decide. However when you are deciding for a child who can not make thier own informed rational decisions, well that's another story.

[thewise1]

I think they probably deserve whatever they get based purely on what I've read here.

I am, however, afraid that giving ground on what is clearly a tragic incident will just result in more state control over parental rights and more state interference in family life. So I very cautiously will move forward saying that they should face a jury on this only under existing law and I don't want to see any more law created.

What a tragic thing to do. I can't imagine refusing medical care like that. I would be praying and taking the action. If God wants to heal her without the insulin, He will heal her before they give her the shot.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't really think that the vaccine thing is the same. the level of risk is different, the potential benefit/cost is not the same. IN this case the child was going to die, period. The child could have been saved easily by a routine medical procedure. a shot of insulin? They chose to let thier kid die (100% chance) instead of doing the most basic of minimal medical treatment.
If it was you yourself refusing treatement for your own body, fine. You can do that. If you would rather die than take medical treatement that is up to each and every individual to decide. However when you are deciding for a child who can not make thier own informed rational decisions, well that's another story.

How is refusing a shot of life saving insulin any different than a life saving blood transfusion for a Jehovah's Witness?

I wasn't trying to compare the severity of refusing a vaccine to what these parents did, only that in both cases, the parents are making the medical decision for their child, a decision a lot of people perhaps disagree with

[motivez]

Here's a picture of the girl:


Madeline Kara Neumann is shown working on chalk art last summer during downtown Wausau's Chalk Fest.



And a link to their religion / church: Unleavened Bread Ministries - Warning: These are America's Last Days

Full of end of the world predictions.. here's their page on their view of modern medicine:

Unleavened Bread Ministries - Warning: These are America's Last Days

Think about this:
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Then think about this:
a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

And they think everyone who goes to doctors worship a Greek God named Asclepius, who's a false Christ..

From their testimonies page:

Unleavened Bread Ministries - Testimonies

Hello brethren. About a couple months ago, our truck was having strange wear on its tires. A Christian friend, who was a tire expert, concluded that there was a problem with the front-end of the vehicle. So we scheduled an appointment for the Toyota auto shop. After listening to David's testimonies from his Wilderness DVD as well as other UBM testimonies, we decided to command the truck to be healed in the Name of Jesus. Well, soon after this prayer, the Lord reminded me about the appointment I had already made. So, our works needed to follow our faith. I called and cancelled the appointment. We considered it a done deal. Well, yesterday, our friend who originally looked at the tires said that the wear was now gone AND in fact there was smooth wear distribution on the tires. The Lord fixed the front-end perfectly! Our friend was praising the Lord too! What an awesome God we have!!!

Hello, Dear Brother David. I just had to let everyone know how Awesome God is.

It all started when I got angry about something with myself and others. As the days went by I would try but couldn't let it go. So finally God had to give me a spanking. As I was listening to my iPod which is filled with UBM teachings, I 'accidentally' dropped it in some water. It was swimming!

I quickly grabbed for it and began to pray and dry it at the same time. God gave me the grace to believe that it was healed. Moments later it hit me that this was from The Lord and immediately I confessed. The gravity of the situation was the motivation I needed to let go of all sin and not let a root of bitterness grow. I say "gravity" because $280 is a lot to throw away.

It was completely dead for a day and then started to act very badly the next. I told the iPod that by His stripes it was healed. The whole time God was giving me grace to believe and I kept rejecting the fearful thoughts.

The third day it resurrected and it's perfectly healed in Jesus' Name.

God is Awesome!!! Thank you, Lord, for grace and mercy.

So God heals iPods, but not little girls with diabetes?

[thewise1]

So wait, hold on...

It says she's 11, hadn't been to the doctor since she was 3. Did they go to the doctor and then she died? Was treatment refused, or did she simply die because they didn't go to the doctor?

Yeah sometimes I skim too much, sorry

[motivez]

She hadn't been to a doctor since she was 3, she got sick and instead of seeking ANY care for her, they decided instead to pray, and she died.

[thewise1]

lol @ testimonies. These people sound like my parents

[JaJae]

I don't think religion is an excuse for child abuse or neglect. Religion shouldn't protect people from the harm it causes others.

I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but many terrorists think they're acting in the name of their religion. Withholding medical care in the name of religion is really no different to me. It's more passive, but the end result is the same.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

She hadn't been to a doctor since she was 3, she got sick and instead of seeking ANY care for her, they decided instead to pray, and she died.

Mixed feelings still, even moreso. I think I'm still in agreement with what I previously said. Let a jury sort this out, that way the whole story can be shared. Maybe they thought it was no big deal, maybe they couldn't afford it, I dunno. Let the jury decide I guess.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

I don't think religion is an excuse for child abuse or neglect. Religion shouldn't protect people from the harm it causes others.

I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but many terrorists think they're acting in the name of their religion. Withholding medical care in the name of religion is really no different to me. It's more passive, but the end result is the same.

So would you force a blood transfusion on a Jehovah's Witness who needed it to live after a car accident?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

Mixed feelings still, even moreso. I think I'm still in agreement with what I previously said. Let a jury sort this out, that way the whole story can be shared. Maybe they thought it was no big deal, maybe they couldn't afford it, I dunno. Let the jury decide I guess.

Any emergency room would have taken her, so it's not really a matter of afford.. and if they couldn't afford basic care (I consider insulin 'basic' for someone with diabetes), the child should have been made a ward of the state..

[motivez]

Originally Posted by thewise1

lol @ testimonies. These people sound like my parents

I have a hard time believing people actually believe stuff like this.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

I have a hard time believing people actually believe stuff like this.

I'm being serious when I say they sound similar to my parents.

[thewise1]

Originally Posted by motivez

Any emergency room would have taken her, so it's not really a matter of afford.. and if they couldn't afford basic care (I consider insulin 'basic' for someone with diabetes), the child should have been made a ward of the state..

So a poor family should have their kids taken away?