Interesting conversation with a middle eastern man about Iraq...

[6SpeedTA95]

Guys today I ate lunch at a middle eastern restaurant downtown. They've got some great food and the guy inline in front of me was talking to the owner about Iraq and I overheard the owner say that we should NOT leave Iraq. This caught me a bit off guard so when I ordered my food I chatted with him for a few minutes.

He said that we should NOT leave Iraq. I told him my whole story about how I was for the war at the time but our intelligence turned out to be wrong and looking back I think it was a mistake. I said now we're sitting over there defending people who do not want to be defended and who do not take their freedom seriously.

He disagreed, quite strongly, he said the people of Iraq do take their freedom seriously but they're used to living under oppression and they do not have a firm grasp on how to run their lives without government threatening them. He said they have to do it in their own time. I said well its costing us a tremendous amount of blood and treasure. He agreed but he said freeing people from oppression is a noble cause. I went on to tell him Iwas for a timeline. He seemed to think that a timeline wasn't a terrible idea but that it wasn't ideal. He said forcing them to stand on their own two feet before they are ready is a bad move because it could lead to tyranny once again. The people want freedom but do not know how to handle it he said. My response was without incentive to stand on their own two feet, they never will. At that point someone else came in to order and I left...but I thought it was an interesting conversation. All points we've heard before but I really had to respect his opinion since he spent the first 30 or 35 years of his life over there.

[Smull]

I guess i can kinda see where hes coming from, but it isn't our job to fix Iraq. This may sound cold, but we just can't go around and liberate the entire world even if the people in any given country would love it.

The only thing thats kinda making me want to stay in Iraq is that we've come this far and do seem to be making progress. It was a mistake in the first place I believe that, but since we were the ones who fucked up their entire way of life (not that it was that great under Saddam) I feel we have some responsibility to try and fix it. I mean if we're already $3 trillion into this thing would it be worth another few billion to see if we can make it work out? A stable and democratic Iraq is certainly a great thing for the US, Iraqis, the middle east and the world. But we need to take long and sober look at the situation and figure out if this is possible and when it is possible. I DO NOT want to see us occupying Iraq for another 50 years as McCain seems to, but if the chances of stability and democracy look good i could tolerate another 2 or 3.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Smull

I guess i can kinda see where hes coming from, but it isn't our job to fix Iraq. This may sound cold, but we just can't go around and liberate the entire world even if the people in any given country would love it.

The only thing thats kinda making me want to stay in Iraq is that we've come this far and do seem to be making progress. It was a mistake in the first place I believe that, but since we were the ones who fucked up their entire way of life (not that it was that great under Saddam) I feel we have some responsibility to try and fix it. I mean if we're already $3 trillion into this thing would it be worth another few billion to see if we can make it work out? A stable and democratic Iraq is certainly a great thing for the US, Iraqis, the middle east and the world. But we need to take long and sober look at the situation and figure out if this is possible and when it is possible. I DO NOT want to see us occupying Iraq for another 50 years as McCain seems to, but if the chances of stability and democracy look good i could tolerate another 2 or 3.

I agree its not our job, but we made it our job when we decided to carry out the clusterfuck of a mission.

[IminWonderland]

I do agree with that guy. We broke it, now we have to fix it, and we don't have the leadership to get it done yet.

I think that we have set ourselves up to screw them and us though. I love this noble cause of speading freedom, I just wish we didn't use war to do it.

[Darlin]

Originally Posted by Smull

I guess i can kinda see where hes coming from, but it isn't our job to fix Iraq. This may sound cold, but we just can't go around and liberate the entire world even if the people in any given country would love it.

The only thing thats kinda making me want to stay in Iraq is that we've come this far and do seem to be making progress. It was a mistake in the first place I believe that, but since we were the ones who fucked up their entire way of life (not that it was that great under Saddam) I feel we have some responsibility to try and fix it. I mean if we're already $3 trillion into this thing would it be worth another few billion to see if we can make it work out? A stable and democratic Iraq is certainly a great thing for the US, Iraqis, the middle east and the world. But we need to take long and sober look at the situation and figure out if this is possible and when it is possible. I DO NOT want to see us occupying Iraq for another 50 years as McCain seems to, but if the chances of stability and democracy look good i could tolerate another 2 or 3.

Not that great under Saddam? Not that great? Maximum Understatement.

Right or wrong, there are Iraquis today who are not being tortured, who are not a rotting body in a mass grave. Right or wrong, this country freed an entire populace from tyranny.

How spoiled we are in this country. We can afford to speak against our president, in Iraq, that might have gotten your tounge cut out and your sister raped to boot!

I don't want our troops there, maybe it was none of our business, maybe Bush lied..well, maybe Bush lied, but people are alive because of it.

[Darlin]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I do agree with that guy. We broke it, now we have to fix it, and we don't have the leadership to get it done yet.

I think that we have set ourselves up to screw them and us though. I love this noble cause of speading freedom, I just wish we didn't use war to do it.

And the Iraqui, strapped to a metal frame, being electrocuted, or the Iraqui, fingers and arms broken, being tossed from a building, the Iraqi girl being gang raped and beaten, yep us using war to free them sure is screwed. I know THEY must think that way.

[Rhianann]

This article is a little old but still interesting, Halliburton, Dick Cheney, and Wartime Spoils

When Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle revealed that he was getting $725,000 to help Global Crossing navigate the national security issues surrounding the sale of its assets, the press jumped all over Perle, and rightly so. There was indeed something fishy about the chairman of a board that advises the Pentagon making that kind of money to help a company that was having problems with national security issues. Perle is also on the board of Onset Technology, the leading provider of message conversion technology and a major supplier to Bechtel - one of the leading candidates for rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure.
As the Center for Public Integrity has documented, this kind of thing is quite prevalent on the Defense Policy Board, where at least nine of the 30 members have ties to companies that have won more than $76 billion in defense contracts in 2001 and 2002. As more and more wartime contracts are announced, more and more conflicts of interest are coming to light. After all, the Bush administration is riddled with ties to the weapons, engineering, construction, and oil companies that have the most to profit from a war in Iraq. Perle's story is certainly not unusual.

I don't think freedom was high on the list of reasons to invade Iraq. Read the article. It boggles my mind that a company can go from paying $302 million in taxes to getting an $85 million return.

[Smull]

But nonetheless, freedom was the result. The Iraqi people are, I think, clearly better off now, I was being somewhat sarcastic with that remark. But my main point is that it shouldn't really be our job to bring freedom to the Iraqi people. Why do American taxpayers and America lives pay for their struggle. Especially when we can't afford it and can't possibly just go around freeing oppressed peoples of the world just because they're oppressed. If any other body should be helping the Iraqi people it should be the UN, so the whole world shares the burden, not just us.

[Rhianann]

My opinion on that is the middle east has been at war for 5000 years. Nothing we do can stop it.

Every time I hear someone say we should stay in Iraq, we are there to "liberate" them, it makes me think of Rwanda.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Darlin

And the Iraqui, strapped to a metal frame, being electrocuted, or the Iraqui, fingers and arms broken, being tossed from a building, the Iraqi girl being gang raped and beaten, yep us using war to free them sure is screwed. I know THEY must think that way.

America's military shouldn't be used in this way. it's a bad policy. That is why we are the only people doing it, and all the other countries who were "helping" only sent marginal help.

I feel for the Iraqi's and want them to share the same freedoms that I have. But, this war is not going to solve that, neither was taking out Sadam.

And the proof will be in the pudding if in 20 years, their population is under the thumb of another dictator, with the difference of making our corporations richer in the process.

It's not like America has some great streak of setting up successful democracies abroad, and to expect that to be a product now, to me isn't realistic.



Maybe they do feel their country is better off, and that is great for them. But, that doesn't mean that just because they are better for now, means they will be better in 5 or 10 years. What we did there has far more reprucussions that we won't know for decades to come.

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by Darlin

Right or wrong, there are Iraquis today who are not being tortured, who are not a rotting body in a mass grave.

Um, are you reading the news? Iraqis are still being tortured. Iraqis are still being buried in mass graves.

tehran times : Mass grave discovered near Baghdad

Mass grave discovered near Baghdad

BAGHDAD (AP) -- About 50 dead bodies were discovered Tuesday in a mass grave northwest of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said.

U.S.-backed Sunni tribesmen found the grave while patrolling the village of Jazeerah, 15 miles west of Samarra near Lake Tharthar, said Col. Mazin Younis Hussein, commander of the Samarra support force, a group of local men working with U.S. forces.

Some of the bodies were severely decomposed, suggesting they had been buried months ago, while other victims appeared to have been killed recently, said Samarra police Lt. Muthana Shakir, who visited the site Tuesday and saw the bodies.

As many as 200 bodies have been unearthed in recent months from mass graves around Lake Tharthar. Al-Qaeda in Iraq controlled the area, as well as huge swaths of Iraq's western deserts, until being ousted early this year in an uprising by local tribes.

Mass Grave Found near Baghdad: Mass Grave Found near Baghdad

Mass Grave Found near Baghdad

4 June 2008, Wednesday

Iraqi villagers and soldiers have unearthed at least 13 bodies from a shallow mass grave south of Baghdad, officials said Wednesday.

The grave was found Wednesday in Latifiyah, a mixed Sunni-Shiite area about 30 kilometres miles south of the Iraqi capital.

The area was taken over by al-Qaida-linked militants a few years ago, before the US and Iraqi forces regained control late last year, officials say.

As many as 200 bodies have been unearthed in recent months from mass graves around Baghdad.

...

FACTBOX: Security developments in Iraq, June 2 | Special Coverage | Reuters

MAHAWEEL - Two bodies were found with gunshot wounds and signs of torture in Mahaweel, 60 km (35 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

FACTBOX-Security developments in Iraq, June 11 | Reuters

FALLUJA - Police said they found the bodies of five men, shot and tortured, near Falluja, 50 km (35 miles) west of Baghdad

Iraqi police latest targets in car bombings - World - smh.com.au

Iraqi police latest targets in car bombings


Ashraf Khalil in Baghdad
June 6, 2008


TWO car bombings in Baghdad killed at least 22 people as insurgents launched attacks aimed at Iraqi police on the deadliest day in the capital in months.
Elsewhere, three soldiers from US forces were killed by small-arms fire in an attack in Hawija near the northern city of Kirkuk on Wednesday.
In the east of Baghdad in Kamaliyah, US and Iraqi soldiers discovered at least 10 bodies in a mass grave believed to be about two years old. Acting on a tip from a resident, the soldiers unearthed the bodies in a "watery well-like grave," said the US military.
In Baghdad, a large truck bomb exploded outside the home of a senior police officer, Nadhim Taeih, in the eastern neighbourhood of Al Shaab. Brigadier-General Taeih commands the Najda, a rapid-reaction force with the Iraqi police. He was not home at the time of the blast, which killed at least 15 people, including one child and his nephew, said Ministry of Information officials. Fifty people were injured, including several members of Brigadier-General Taeih's immediate family.
Later in the evening, a second car bomb killed seven people, including three members of an elite police commando unit. Witnesses and police at the scene said a parked red Volkswagen Passat exploded as a police patrol truck was passing by in the central Baghdad neighbourhood of Jadriya.
Police, firefighters and US soldiers rushed to the scene, where the remnants of the Passat was surrounded by at least three destroyed vehicles.
Wednesday's attacks appeared to signal a renewed insurgent campaign against Iraqi police. Several witnesses to the Jadriya bombing noted that the attackers could have killed many more by targeting one of the many outdoor cafes, restaurants and ice-cream parlours that line the street. Instead the bomber waited until a patrol from the police commando squad known as the Maghawir passed. The commandos patrol Baghdad in lightly armoured pick-up trucks. Five of the officers were wounded, and six civilians.
The twin car bombings represented a comparative spike in bombings in Baghdad after several relatively calm months. Multiple bombings were a near-daily occurrence until last year, but tapered off mostly due to a US troop build-up and increasing capability of Iraqi security forces.
The mass grave in eastern Baghdad appeared to date back to 2006, a period when secretive death squads roamed Baghdad at night and dozens of fresh bodies were discovered almost daily, many bearing signs of torture.

Originally Posted by Darlin

I don't want our troops there, maybe it was none of our business, maybe Bush lied..well, maybe Bush lied, but people are alive because of it.

What about the over 4000 American and Allied lives lost because Bush lied? Don't they deserve a mention, or are Iraqi lives the only lives that matter? If so, what about all the innocent Iraqis who have been (and continue to be) killed by American and Allied bombs and bullets since the beginning of this war?

If it was wrong to go into Iraq, it's wrong to stay in Iraq. I agree with 6Speed and disagree with that restaurant owner. If Iraqis wanted freedom before the invasion, they should have risen up against Saddam. If the Iraqis want freedom now, they need to start working to stand on their own two feet. It doesn't take five years to train American soldiers to fight for their country, but apparently it takes more than five years to train Iraqis to fight for their own.

Iraqi troops can't defend their country on their own because they "do not have a firm grasp on how to run their lives without government threatening them?" Is this a country of children? How could they want freedom when apparently they can't even grasp the concept? And we're expected to patiently wait while the Iraqis "do it in their own time" while it costs our country three hundred million dollars a day? The Iraq war has gone on longer than World War II and there's still no end in sight. How long will it be until Iraqis grasp the concept of freedom? Another year? Another five years? A generation? And most importantly, how are Iraqis supposed to effectively learn the concept of freedom while armed soldiers from another country occupy their own?

You know, there used to be a term used for people who thought that spending American blood and treasure for "noble causes" and being the world's policeman, and that term is "liberal." I'm all for liberating oppressed peoples, but even this liberal realizes that you can't bring freedom to people at the barrel of a gun. George W. Bush has done a better job disproving that facet of liberal philosophy better than any liberal in history.

And for all those so-called conservatives that believe in liberating oppressed people from cruel dictators: why do we NEVER hear you clamoring to continue this noble crusade? The people of North Korea need some liberating, but you NEVER hear "conservatives" advocating invading and liberating countries like North Korea. I suspect it's because NK actually HAS WMD, unlike Iraq.

[thatguyoverthere]

Originally Posted by Darlin

And the Iraqui, strapped to a metal frame, being electrocuted, or the Iraqui, fingers and arms broken, being tossed from a building, the Iraqi girl being gang raped and beaten, yep us using war to free them sure is screwed. I know THEY must think that way.

You act as if similar incidents of violence didn't happen after our invasion and don't continue today. Abu Ghraib ring any bells?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

[Dispatcher]

Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere

You act as if similar incidents of violence didn't happen after our invasion and don't continue today. Abu Ghraib ring any bells?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

The last one was the KO

[7960]

people have been saying what was said in the original post for years.

does it somehow "mean more" because now you heard it from an iraqi?

[jimeigh]

Originally Posted by 7960

people have been saying what was said in the original post for years.

does it somehow "mean more" because now you heard it from an iraqi?

i really dont like how you seem to have a knack for beating me to the punch, old man.

i've got my eyes on you.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by 7960

people have been saying what was said in the original post for years.

does it somehow "mean more" because now you heard it from an iraqi?

Does it mean more? I dunno if it means more but it was good to hear from him and he has insights that others do not having lived there for many years would you not agree?

[7960]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Does it mean more? I dunno if it means more but it was good to hear from him and he has insights that others do not having lived there for many years would you not agree?

no I would not agree. he didn't give any more insights than we already knew. saying "...but since a *real* IRAQI said it, NOW we KNOW it's gospel!" is textbook definition appeal to authority.