Hamas-Israeli truce

[motivez]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Actually, I believe there was mortar fire from the West Bank into Israel which is what prompted the raid.

Wrong.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

So, Israel launches a military operation in Palestinian territory not technically a part of the cease fire.. and Palestinian military groups respond to it in kind? Seems like Israel's aggression aggression has put the cease fire in jeopardy.

It'd be like if Canada has been launching military incursions into Minnesota, we have a cease fire, and while they aren't attacking Minnesota, they start going after North Dakota instead.

Just because they're two separate territories doesn't mean the people in Minnesota don't care about what's happening to them.

Israel didn't have a cease-fire agreement with the West Bank. Therefore, they didn't break any cease-fire agreement they had with Gaza. It seems the militants in Gaza are looking for excuses to attack Israel.

If you made an agreement with me, say, not to cuss at each other, and I then cussed at Donkey, would you say I broke the cease-cussing agreement cause I cussed at your "brother"?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

Israel didn't have a cease-fire agreement with the West Bank. Therefore, they didn't break any cease-fire agreement they had with Gaza. It seems the militants in Gaza are looking for excuses to attack Israel.

If you made an agreement with me, say, not to cuss at each other, and I then cussed at Donkey, would you say I broke the cease-cussing agreement cause I cussed at your "brother"?

I don't think "cussing" is a very good analogy to Israel killing a member of a group who has people in both areas.

Israel is abusing a technicality of the ceasefire.. and want to turn around and lay the blame on the Palestinian military groups for responding to their aggression.

This is why a two state solution, where the Palestinian people have autonomy over their lands, and a connected region to live in, without Israeli interference is so important.

Because every time Israel violates their borders, conducts a raid, bulldozes a village, kills innocent civilians, or whatever else.. these groups are going to respond.

Until they start respecting the sovereignty of the Palestinians and give them autonomy and the ability to control their own destiny as a nation, the peace process will be littered with corpses from incidents like this.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

Until they start respecting the sovereignty of the Palestinians and give them autonomy and the ability to control their own destiny as a nation, the peace process will be littered with corpses from incidents like this.

You seem to think that even if Israel gave them all these things that attacks against Israel would just stop. You are wrong. Palestine is a staging ground for every person in the Middle East to fight Israel. To them, peace can't exist until Israel is wiped out. Nations and groups say this all the time.

[motivez]

No, I don't think it would stop it immediately, but it's a big step in the right direction. It has to begin with something. Israel can't get everything it wants and expect peace. These groups can't get everything they want either.

Without giving these people autonomy and control over their land, and Israel respecting their borders, there will never be a stable economy or stable population that's interested in peace.

These groups exist because there's very little other opportunities for people in the territories, something that Israel has to accept a large part of the responsibility for. They subject the Palestinians to military occupation and oppression in their daily lives.

You get angry at the suggestion of someone coming in and taking your guns or limiting your personal freedom at all, imagine not being able to travel outside your neighborhood for weeks or months on end, or being able to get back to your home because of troops preventing you from using the roads to get there.. or having your house bulldozed because of a raid. I'm sure you'd be angry enough to fight back.

I'm not suggesting they're correct for attacking civilians or launching rockets aimlessly into Israeli territory, I don't think that's the correct way to go about things.. but that's the only method they have at their disposal

Israel has the best opportunity to start working towards true long term peace by really being interested in a two state solution that's workable for the Palestinian people.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

I don't think "cussing" is a very good analogy to Israel killing a member of a group who has people in both areas.

Israel is abusing a technicality of the ceasefire.. and want to turn around and lay the blame on the Palestinian military groups for responding to their aggression.

This is why a two state solution, where the Palestinian people have autonomy over their lands, and a connected region to live in, without Israeli interference is so important.

Because every time Israel violates their borders, conducts a raid, bulldozes a village, kills innocent civilians, or whatever else.. these groups are going to respond.

Until they start respecting the sovereignty of the Palestinians and give them autonomy and the ability to control their own destiny as a nation, the peace process will be littered with corpses from incidents like this.

They didn't kill innocent civilians.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

They didn't kill innocent civilians.

Who didn't? Israel? Civilians are often casualties in their raids or air strikes.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

No, I don't think it would stop it immediately, but it's a big step in the right direction. It has to begin with something. Israel can't get everything it wants and expect peace. These groups can't get everything they want either.

Without giving these people autonomy and control over their land, and Israel respecting their borders, there will never be a stable economy or stable population that's interested in peace.

These groups exist because there's very little other opportunities for people in the territories, something that Israel has to accept a large part of the responsibility for. They subject the Palestinians to military occupation and oppression in their daily lives.

You get angry at the suggestion of someone coming in and taking your guns or limiting your personal freedom at all, imagine not being able to travel outside your neighborhood for weeks or months on end, or being able to get back to your home because of troops preventing you from using the roads to get there.. or having your house bulldozed because of a raid. I'm sure you'd be angry enough to fight back.

I'm not suggesting they're correct for attacking civilians or launching rockets aimlessly into Israeli territory, I don't think that's the correct way to go about things.. but that's the only method they have at their disposal

Israel has the best opportunity to start working towards true long term peace by really being interested in a two state solution that's workable for the Palestinian people.

You also seem to think that the countries surrounding Palestine WANT them to become an independent nation. They don't. They want a weak Palestine. They want a non-nation there so they can have their groups keep attacking Israel so Israel will respond in kind and maintain the hate. And without their help and support peace will never come.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

Israel didn't have a cease-fire agreement with the West Bank. Therefore, they didn't break any cease-fire agreement they had with Gaza. It seems the militants in Gaza are looking for excuses to attack Israel.

If you made an agreement with me, say, not to cuss at each other, and I then cussed at Donkey, would you say I broke the cease-cussing agreement cause I cussed at your "brother"?

I think that you are missing the fact that Israel attacked a Palestinian group that had agreed to the cease fire. Israel attacked the group first and the same group responded with the rockets.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

You seem to think that even if Israel gave them all these things that attacks against Israel would just stop. You are wrong. Palestine is a staging ground for every person in the Middle East to fight Israel. To them, peace can't exist until Israel is wiped out. Nations and groups say this all the time.

They wouldn't stop all at once no, but they would eventually stop as Palestinian security was better established. Most Palestinians want a two state solution and the new government would arrest those who would not follow the agreements made because it wouldn't want a continuation of the violence that would threaten its existence. Just look at how Lebanon cracked down on anti-Israeli fighters recently.

It would take more than this on both sides for a long lasting peace to occur, but there most certainly cannot be peace until Israel addresses these issues.

The French President said as much just the other day:

Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Sarkozy chides Israel on settlers

Even Bush and the US government has come down on Israel for its failures to pursue a peace deal, and Bush is a big supporter of Israel.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Nurse Betty

They didn't kill innocent civilians.

More innocent unarmed civilians have been killed by IDF forces then Israelis have been killed by all Palestinian armed groups combined. It does happen.

[Dylith]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

You also seem to think that the countries surrounding Palestine WANT them to become an independent nation. They don't. They want a weak Palestine. They want a non-nation there so they can have their groups keep attacking Israel so Israel will respond in kind and maintain the hate. And without their help and support peace will never come.

The current politcal climate in the Middle East is not the same that it was during the six day war. Egypt is currently under the thumb of the US and thus Israel and has relations with Israel. Jordan is quite moderate and supplies much of the aid that flows into places such as the Gaza Strip and isn't hostile to Israel. The Lebanese government has been fighting anti-Israeli fighters recently and has been putting a lot of effort into creating a unity government. (though Israel could do a lot to ease tentions there as well with regards to the Golan heights and the Sheba farms).

And Syria dislikes both Lebanon and Israel and doesn't want to take sides, but is trying to win over Israeli support because it is the only way that they can lay claim to the occupied land that Israel holds which technically belongs to Lebanon.

The main aggressor against Israel is Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood (the latter of which is being repressed in Egypt). Iran is funding terrorist activity in the area, but Iran is not a border state with Israel or Palestine.