McCain's latest switch-a-roo

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I thought the best way to get alternative fuels was for the "MARKET" to demand it.

Isn't the market demanding it now?

So wouldn't drilling be a band aid and not really fix anything, and then just drive down the demand for an alternative, which is totally counter productive?

Yes, drilling is a band aid. But one that will stop the bleeding for a while until something new does come out. We can't just outlaw oil and hope for the best.

Just because I hate my job and want a new one doesn't mean I should quit and then start looking. I'll keep doing what I am doing to provide until I find that new, better, job.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by 7960

this is bordering on moranic.

whether you didn't, vote, voted for him, or voted for someone else, you have every right to complain about decisions he's made.

Slow down there hotrod. It's just a comedic response to those that say, "If you don't vote, you have no right to complain!" Sheesh.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yes, drilling is a band aid. But one that will stop the bleeding for a while until something new does come out. We can't just outlaw oil and hope for the best.

Just because I hate my job and want a new one doesn't mean I should quit and then start looking. I'll keep doing what I am doing to provide until I find that new, better, job.

But the oil companies already have leases to off shore drill.

They should use what they have been given already, and we should just realize that life is going to REALLY REALLY suck until alternatives.

Akin to Depression, doesn't it make the country stronger as whole when we have to work together through a hard time and come out ahead?

This oil drilling off shore is like his "Everyone go shopping" after 9/11 crap.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

But the oil companies already have leases to off shore drill.

They should use what they have been given already, and we should just realize that life is going to REALLY REALLY suck until alternatives.

Akin to Depression, doesn't it make the country stronger as whole when we have to work together through a hard time and come out ahead?

This oil drilling off shore is like his "Everyone go shopping" after 9/11 crap.

A great economy with inexpensive gas and affordable food makes us stronger as a whole. People suffering doesn't.

We need to be more self reliant. What if one day OPEC just says "You know, we have so much business from China and India we don't need the US anymore. Fuck em." ? We would be fucked. We need to make sure we are self reliant enough where that wouldn't crash our whole economy.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

A great economy with inexpensive gas and affordable food makes us stronger as a whole. People suffering doesn't.

We need to be more self reliant. What if one day OPEC just says "You know, we have so much business from China and India we don't need the US anymore. Fuck em." ? We would be fucked. We need to make sure we are self reliant enough where that wouldn't crash our whole economy.

I think we're going to have to suffer before we're self reliant, thanks to our dependence on oil.

Solve the oil problem, and we are self reliant.

[DosEquis]

Drilling off shore is not going to be a solution to $140 and $4 gas. Even if it were to pass it would take years to get a rig up and running. Its not a solution for TODAY. Its a step that might help 5 years from now, but its also a step in the wrong direction for his views on climate change. If we put as much effort and research as we would for new oil wells around the coast in to alternatives, we would have just as affective of solution to our energy prices.... except it would be easier on the environment.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yes, drilling is a band aid. But one that will stop the bleeding for a while until something new does come out. We can't just outlaw oil and hope for the best.

Just because I hate my job and want a new one doesn't mean I should quit and then start looking. I'll keep doing what I am doing to provide until I find that new, better, job.

We aren't outlaw oil or quit our jobs (to stay with the analogy). We are basically working just hard enough not to get fired...while we try to find another solution..or job. We are essentially doing the 'keep what I am doing to provide until a new better' solution comes along.

[IminWonderland]

Besides, I think it's cute that for YEARS under the Bush Administration, Oil has SKYROCKETED. And, SUDDENLY off shore drilling is the solution? I bet it is for the Oil companies, who WILL make MASSIVE profits from doing it, since it will cost them $60 a barrel to get it.

That's a nice profit margin.

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

They should use what they have been given already, and we should just realize that life is going to REALLY REALLY suck until alternatives.

It's not that life is going to suck. It's that food is not going to get to markets. I'm trying to find the factoid on how much food moves by truck........when prices get too high it's just going to stop. Are you ready to pay $8 for a tomato or will you go without?

Akin to Depression, doesn't it make the country stronger as whole when we have to work together through a hard time and come out ahead?

I hate the liberal arts mentality.

This oil drilling off shore is like his "Everyone go shopping" after 9/11 crap.

No. It's more like his "the country can't operate without oil. It makes gasoline, it's a significant component of plastic, most engines wouldn't run without it..........it's not just about gas. It's about things that move. For a variety of reasons, without oil things don't move very well if they move at all.

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I think we're going to have to suffer before we're self reliant, thanks to our dependence on oil.

Solve the oil problem, and we are self reliant.

"we're not going to treat the blood gushing out of your eyes, instead we're going to let you sit there and suffer a bit while we work on the cure for your ailment."

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Besides, I think it's cute that for YEARS under the Bush Administration, Oil has SKYROCKETED. And, SUDDENLY off shore drilling is the solution? I bet it is for the Oil companies, who WILL make MASSIVE profits from doing it, since it will cost them $60 a barrel to get it.

That's a nice profit margin.

Companies would go broke if they refused to make profit just to make liberals happy. And communism doesn't work, because, well, no profit motivation.

Profit isn't a bad thing. Start a company of your own and I bet you would love to make a profit. Hell, Gore is making a shitload of profit just by panicking liberals with lies and exaggerations. He doesn't even produce anything anybody can use!

[7960]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Besides, I think it's cute that for YEARS under the .........

clinton administration?

The upward trend started while clinton was in office, when OPEC cut production. But of course I'm not saying it had anything to do with clinton, just like you're not saying the current price has anything to do with bush........right?

There were 3 cuts in production in '98 and '99 and the price started to climb and has been on a generally upward slope since then. In '99'-'00 there were 3 increases in production that did not cover the cuts in production and the price leveled out. Then in '01-'02 there were 6 cuts in production (with 2 minimal increases), 9/11, and a strike in venezuela. Then in '05 asian demand went through the roof while in '06 katrina knocked out our ability to refine oil.

I guess all that makes it bush's fault? Even while in '06-'07 there were more cuts in production?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Yes, drilling is a band aid. But one that will stop the bleeding for a while until something new does come out. We can't just outlaw oil and hope for the best.

Just because I hate my job and want a new one doesn't mean I should quit and then start looking. I'll keep doing what I am doing to provide until I find that new, better, job.

We wont see the benefits of that oil for years and years though.. and in the case of ANWR, like the thread I posted, 75 cents per barrel in 10 years is a useless amount of savings..

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

Companies would go broke if they refused to make profit just to make liberals happy. And communism doesn't work, because, well, no profit motivation.

Profit isn't a bad thing. Start a company of your own and I bet you would love to make a profit. Hell, Gore is making a shitload of profit just by panicking liberals with lies and exaggerations. He doesn't even produce anything anybody can use!

Communism doesn't work because it requires us to live in a utopian society, and we don't. It's the same reason all "pure" ideologies fail

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

We wont see the benefits of that oil for years and years though.. and in the case of ANWR, like the thread I posted, 75 cents per barrel in 10 years is a useless amount of savings..

that's JUST anwar.

there's more oil under north dakota and offshore.

no it's not enough to fill the need, but it is enough to buy some time and put some pressure on the middle east to increase production and/or lower prices.

[avsp]

The oil is more expensive because supply is struggling to keep pace with demand

New oil sources wont help prices now they may help keep future price rises down

In some ways it makes sense for the US to burn nearly all of the Saudi oil before burning its remaining reserves, assuming stuff 200 miles offshore counts as 'American'.

Who really doubts that all the oil that can be got at is ultimately going to be burnt along with all the coal & wood & sewage & food waste & soylant green & & & &?

According to IEA the investment required to keep fossil fuels flowing over the next 25 years or so is in the region of $500million A DAY worldwide

In very rough figures the world uses a cubic mile of crude oil a year. Theres roughly about 50 years left, ..., after that it going to be very hard to get that amount out each year, ..., probably

So, thats 50 years to replace the oil. Heres a graphic of what the world has to build each year, every year, for 50 years to replace the oil, (note the additional inefficiencies in electricity to hydrogen production for cars isnt factored in)



So, we've got to pay for every more expensive oil development costs AND AT THE SAME TIME pay to move away from dependance on ever depeleting oil

Theres much to say about the graphic, ..., there probably arent 200 sites where a Three Gorges style dam could be built, ..., but then thats the point of the graphic, its to roughly indicate the possible mixes


Meanwhile
To complain that politicos are given to popularism is to complain that water is wet, surely? It could even be argued that its what they're supposed to do anyway, to reflect the wishes of the people etc. OTOH I can see/share the distaste for extremely craven examples, ..., especially if one doubts the likelyhood of them actually following through etc.

Lastly, who favours the idea that only those who complain should be given the vote? Hang on, isnt that what happens now anyway?

[soze=1] fanx, as always, to brother boris mididoctors for finding the graphic etc[/size]

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by motivez

We wont see the benefits of that oil for years and years though.. and in the case of ANWR, like the thread I posted, 75 cents per barrel in 10 years is a useless amount of savings..

That's 75 cents per barrel in the world market. Hopefully our oil will only be used in the US (and maybe Canada) which would save a lot more $ per barrel. And like 7960 said, that number is just for anwar. It doesn't include everywhere else we could drill but aren't.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by avsp

The oil is more expensive because supply is struggling to keep pace with demand

New oil sources wont help prices now they may help keep future price rises down

In some ways it makes sense for the US to burn nearly all of the Saudi oil before burning its remaining reserves, assuming stuff 200 miles offshore counts as 'American'.

Who really doubts that all the oil that can be got at is ultimately going to be burnt along with all the coal & wood & sewage & food waste & soylant green & & & &?

According to IEA the investment required to keep fossil fuels flowing over the next 25 years or so is in the region of $500million A DAY worldwide

In very rough figures the world uses a cubic mile of crude oil a year. Theres roughly about 50 years left, ..., after that it going to be very hard to get that amount out each year, ..., probably

So, thats 50 years to replace the oil. Heres a graphic of what the world has to build each year, every year, for 50 years to replace the oil, (note the additional inefficiencies in electricity to hydrogen production for cars isnt factored in)



So, we've got to pay for every more expensive oil development costs AND AT THE SAME TIME pay to move away from dependance on ever depeleting oil

Theres much to say about the graphic, ..., there probably arent 200 sites where a Three Gorges style dam could be built, ..., but then thats the point of the graphic, its to roughly indicate the possible mixes


Meanwhile
To complain that politicos are given to popularism is to complain that water is wet, surely? It could even be argued that its what they're supposed to do anyway, to reflect the wishes of the people etc. OTOH I can see/share the distaste for extremely craven examples, ..., especially if one doubts the likelyhood of them actually following through etc.

Lastly, who favours the idea that only those who complain should be given the vote? Hang on, isnt that what happens now anyway?

[soze=1] fanx, as always, to brother boris mididoctors for finding the graphic etc[/size]

Wow, that's a new one on me. I'd kind of take it with a grain of salt though until I could see where all those numbers came from.

If those numbers are true we're fucked.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

That's 75 cents per barrel in the world market. Hopefully our oil will only be used in the US (and maybe Canada) which would save a lot more $ per barrel. And like 7960 said, that number is just for anwar. It doesn't include everywhere else we could drill but aren't.